# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 185
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3681 "2012-04-11T20:47:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, suppose the prosecutor believes it, but isn’t sure she can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. > > How about if she can prove it by preponderance of the evidence, but not beyond a reasonable doubt? So you are saying she can’t actually prove a criminal charge, but she is going to try to snow the judge and jury? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3682 "2012-04-11T20:48:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You don’t have the right to disproportionate response to the threat. If I punch you, that does not automatically confer the right to kill me. Immunity from prosecution no matter what the circumstances is bad law. No, it doesn’t. But deadly force is allowed in response to actions that cause reasonable fear for life or great bodily harm. And that’s good law. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3683 "2012-04-11T20:54:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, it doesn’t. But deadly force is allowed in response to actions that cause reasonable fear for life or great bodily harm. And that’s good law. But immunity from prosecution removes the process to determine if the claim for fear of life or great bodily harm is justified. That is why it is bad law. Any time we have to just take the suspect’s word for his innocence, it is bad law. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3684 "2012-04-11T20:54:52Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > So you are saying she can’t actually prove a criminal charge, but she is going to try to snow the judge and jury? That’s not the claim. The claim is that the prosecutor may think it’s a difficult call, something on the margin, and not have a great deal of confidence that a jury will agree with the prosecution’s assessment of the case. My guess is that Angela Corey is in that position now in deciding what (if any) charges should be leveled against George Zimmerman. I don’t want prosecutors to only make charges in cases that are an absolute clear-cut slam dunk, but YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3685 "2012-04-11T20:57:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But immunity from prosecution removes the process to determine if the claim for fear of life or great bodily harm is justified. That is why it is bad law. Any time we have to just take the suspect’s word for his innocence, it is bad law. But you don’t just take the suspect’s word for his innocence. You also take forensic evidence and witnesses’ testimony. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3686 "2012-04-11T21:00:51Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In the shadow of SYG statutes, the law will have to change, or it will become all too easy for armed bullies to provoke confrontations with words, and if their target lays a hand on them, they claim immunity for putting a bullet in them. That is what will happen if the only standard is, who broke the law first. That is bad law. The law has been on the books since 2005. You need to post actual cases and skip the hypotheticals. The link I posted mentioned 140 cases where SYG was invoked. Maybe you should find something that is reality based that matches your scenario. [http://tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/main](http://tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/main) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3687 "2012-04-11T21:36:47Z")
NBC is now reporting that George Zimmerman has been taken into custody, in advance of the press conference which is scheduled in about half an hour. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3688 "2012-04-11T21:39:09Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > That’s not the claim. The claim is that the prosecutor may think it’s a difficult call, something on the margin, and not have a great deal of confidence that a jury will agree with the prosecution’s assessment of the case. My guess is that Angela Corey is in that position now in deciding what (if any) charges should be leveled against George Zimmerman. I don’t want prosecutors to only make charges in cases that are an absolute clear-cut slam dunk, but YMMV. That wasn’t what Bricker was asking. He used the term preponderance of evidence. That is the civil standard. Not beyond a reasonable doubt which is a criminal standard. Actually Alan Dershowitz was talking about this topic yesterday. [http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/10/opinion/dershowitz-trayvon-prosecutor-nightmare/?hpt=hp\_t1](http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/10/opinion/dershowitz-trayvon-prosecutor-nightmare/?hpt=hp_t1) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3689 "2012-04-11T21:42:10Z")
_relief that the world has gone back to making sense_ ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3690 "2012-04-11T21:46:19Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > That wasn’t what Bricker was asking. He used the term preponderance of evidence. That is the civil standard. Not beyond a reasonable doubt which is a criminal standard. Actually Alan Dershowitz was talking about this topic yesterday. > > [http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/10/opinion/dershowitz-trayvon-prosecutor-nightmare/?hpt=hp\_t1](http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/10/opinion/dershowitz-trayvon-prosecutor-nightmare/?hpt=hp_t1) But neither “preponderance of evidence” nor “beyond reasonable doubt” are absolute terms. One person’s _preponderance_ is perhaps another person’s _beyond doubt_. I think it’s arguable that the public is well served by putting marginal cases to juries to make a such a call. But… I will stop commenting on Bricker’s statements, as he is far more capable of explaining or defending them than I am. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3691 "2012-04-11T21:58:24Z")
AP is reporting that Zimmerman is going to be charged with 2nd degree murder. My non-lawerly understanding is that this would indicated a deliberate unjustified killing. Perhaps it’s somewhat different in Florida. If the reporting is correct, it also suggests (to me) that the prosecutor has pretty much entirely dismissed Zimmerman’s version of the event (what we know of it, that is). Ooh, I’m excited as a school girl going to the prom! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3692 "2012-04-11T21:58:44Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > I could get behind this if you were defending yourself with a taser or mace or even brass knuckles. Jumping straight to lethal force would, in a lot of cases, be overkill (heh). I think this is an unrealistic standard. It requires someone under attack, and who has just been punched to evaluate his danger in real time, while continuing to be attacked. To use the example of this case, is Zimmerman supposed to sit there and say, ok he’s punched me and start counting the times Martin slams his head into the ground? 1… 2… 3… ok, now I can use leathal force! No. It’s a unrealistic standard. If someone is being assaulted, they are the victim, and I am going to give them broad latitude to defend themselves. If they use disproportionate force, well, then they made a mistake. But they didn’t create the situation. The person that assaulted them did. So I’m perfectly comfortable with these outcomes. If you punch someone and they shoot you in self-defense, all I have to say to you is “don’t punch people”. > [@Fear Itself](#): > > You don’t have the right to disproportionate response to the threat. If I punch you, that does not automatically confer the right to kill me. Immunity from prosecution no matter what the circumstances is bad law. _shrug_ People die from punches. And how am I supposed to know you are going to be happy just punching me once, and won’t end up stomping my head into the ground? It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and judge. But when you are the one in the fight, you aren’t thinking very clearly. My opinion is that we should give these victims the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3693 "2012-04-11T22:00:46Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > AP is reporting that Zimmerman is going to be charged with 2nd degree murder. My non-lawerly understanding is that this would indicated a deliberate unjustified killing. Perhaps it’s somewhat different in Florida. If the reporting is correct, it also suggests (to me) that the prosecutor has pretty much entirely dismissed Zimmerman’s version of the event (what we know of it, that is). > > Ooh, I’m excited as a school girl going to the prom! 😛 Here is 2nd degree murder in Florida: > [@](#): > > The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree Unless some fantastic new fact comes to life, she doesn’t have a prayer proving that Zimmerman had a “depraved mind regardless of human life”. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3694 "2012-04-11T22:05:26Z")
Ok, what I’ve found about the definition of [2nd degree murder in Florida](http://www.ericmathenylaw.com/Criminal-Defense-Blog/2011/January/Second-Degree-Murder.aspx): “The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life…” ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3695 "2012-04-11T22:07:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As long as Podnay was in a place he had a legal right to be and he was carrying a weapon he had a legal right to carry, and did not initiate illegal force first, he’s permitted to use deadly force to defend himself, even if he was a self-appointed traffic watchman for his neighborhood. MSNBC’s “Hardball” just interviewed a former US Attorney, Zachary Carter, who seems to disagree with you. He says SYG does not protect a person who provokes the conflict; he is obliged to retreat if possible, even if he was not the first to use force. “The justification described in the law is unavailable to a person who initially provokes the use of force against him or herself.” I realize that we don’t know whether whatever Zimmerman did would be considered provocative enough to disqualify the SYG defense. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3696 "2012-04-11T22:11:02Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Here is 2nd degree murder in Florida: > > Unless some fantastic new fact comes to life, she doesn’t have a prayer proving that Zimmerman had a “depraved mind regardless of human life”. We only know the claims reported in the media. Corey knows a great deal more than that, and I suggest that she has a much better idea than either of us about her chances. A number of attorneys have been quoted claiming that it’s not uncommon for prosecutors to charge “up”, to lay the most serious charges possible as a way of applying leverage to get a plea arrangement to a lesser charge. We will see if it has any applicability to this case. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3697 "2012-04-11T22:17:13Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > We only know the claims reported in the media. Corey knows a great deal more than that, and I suggest that she has a much better idea than either of us about her chances. > > A number of attorneys have been quoted claiming that it’s not uncommon for prosecutors to charge “up”, to lay the most serious charges possible as a way of applying leverage to get a plea arrangement to a lesser charge. We will see if it has any applicability to this case. _Shrug_ It just gives the impression of a political decision to me. Like I said, I’m leaving room for facts I don’t know, but there’s no way with what we know that Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder. If that is the charge in front of a judge, it should be dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3698 "2012-04-11T22:24:19Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > _relief that the world has gone back to making sense_ If you’re still so confused about why Zimmerman wasn’t immediately arrested I don’t know how recent events materially change your confusion. What I don’t get is lots of people in this thread showed a deep misunderstanding of concepts like probable cause, self-defense and et cetera and as I predicted any charge will just be used as “ex post facto” justification of prior arguments. The inarguable truth remains: based on what we knew in the early days of this incident there was no publicly known information that would have justified an arrest. Further, given the special prosecutor had to pore over lots of evidence that wasn’t even available or processed by police on the early days of the incident calls into question how easy a call it would have been at that time, either. I have to hope at least you can concede Angela Corey based her decision to prosecute on a lot more than the scant information we had on this case when you started this thread. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3699 "2012-04-11T22:28:13Z")
I think Angela Corey did an excellent job with the press conference. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3700 "2012-04-11T22:29:14Z")
[Here is the relevant definition](http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/flsupct/sc08-744/op-sc08-744.pdf) (according to the FSU law school) of the elements of 2nd degree murder, including the “depraved mind” part: > [@](#): > > An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a > depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that: > > 1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain > to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and > 2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and > 3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to > human life. It seems the most different element to prove would be the second, and I think Zimmerman’s comments during the 911 call might be key to that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=184) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=186)