# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 189
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3761 "2012-04-12T01:55:19Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > This is a win/win for you, because Stoid’s favorite charity just happens to be B-PAAZ. > > Or, Butthurt Posters Against Arresting Zimmerman. I actually assumed at first it would be the “Stoid Law School Tuition Fund.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3762 "2012-04-12T01:56:39Z")
What I’ve loved about this whole thread is anyone who wasn’t saying on day one based on incomplete evidence “arrest Zimmerman” is now “butthurt that he was arrested.” I do think he was overcharged as I can’t fathom how they convict him on second degree murder, but I’m not anywhere near “butthurt” that he was arrested. Unlike the “Team Trayvon” people I don’t get emotionally identified with random idiots in Florida, regardless of what they were doing. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3763 "2012-04-12T01:56:50Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I stand by my statement that second degree murder is **a crime he most certainly did not commit**. So all of the sudden, you know better than the prosecutor? I find it hard to believe she’d deliberately charge Z with a crime she felt incapable of proving. Why arent you deferring to the state’s judgement like you kept admonishing us to do back in the olden days of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3764 "2012-04-12T01:57:49Z")
[QUOTE=miami herald] Zimmerman turned himself in, and at about 8:30 p.m., TV cameras broadcast him walking —\*\* head covered\*\*, wearing a plaid shirt — into Central Florida’s Seminole County Intake Center. [/QUOTE] No comment. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3765 "2012-04-12T01:57:51Z")
The media is already talking about televising the trial. And apparently there are pretty good odds for that to happen in Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3766 "2012-04-12T02:01:56Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > If Zimmerman is convicted of second degree murder I’ll make a $250 donation (with proof) to the charity of your choice. Awesome! Already got it picked out, it’s my fave: [Puppies Behind Bars.](http://puppiesbehindbars.org/) More bang for your charity buck- help rescue a dog, rehabilitate a prisoner, assist the war vet handicapped and bomb squads! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3767 "2012-04-12T02:03:05Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Seems like I remember, wayyyy back in the early days of this thread, that you said you wouldn’t have seen a huge problem in arresting Zimmerman from the beginning. Am I just imagining that? If I’m not, what were you basing that opinion on if not the same feeling that I and others had? I was basing it on the fact that probable cause is a **low** barrier, and I figured anytime someone gets shot, in most cases, the police can probably get some arrest to happen. It may only stick for a few days, but they could have made some arrest. That’s why I would not have had a huge problem with it. However, what I did have a huge problem with is the people who have repeatedly asserted that was the **only** appropriate action, that was the **only** reasonable action, based on information that wasn’t known to the public. In most of the country I imagine Zimmerman would have been arrested initially, but that isn’t the same thing as saying it is “crazy” for him to have not been arrested. In a complicated shooting with a shooter that isn’t a flight risk, it actually makes more sense to take time and build a case versus make an arrest, once someone is arrested their right to a speedy trial and the timing of the justice system comes into play and there is now a deadline to actually complete your investigation. > [@](#): > > Sorry, but I’m not chastened by your remarks. All the people out on the interwebs who seem disappointed by the prosecutor’s decision–they are the ones who need to be scolded for jumping to conclusions. My whole position has been that there has been ample doubt to justify an arrest and Zimmerman should have to justify his actions in the court of law. It’s the least he can do for taking a life. If I have to do this when fighting a traffic ticket, he should have to do this for killing someone (yes, I understand the constraints of that horrible law…and that is a part of the world that doesn’t make sense to me). I’m only disappointed that the prosecutor charged second degree murder–even without the full facts of the case I can’t imagine how the prosecutor thinks she will prove the intent element. Unless she has a “smoking gun” in regards to intent (and she might) I will say she probably overcharged him for political or tactical reasons. But you’re still stuck on this idea that if you kill anyone **ever** you have to be tried by a jury so we can find out what happens. That just isn’t the truth, it isn’t the truth from an ethical, legal, or practical stand point. I think the Martin/Zimmerman incident warranted an investigation, an in depth investigation. It received that. But the moment the story broke I don’t think it was reasonable to say “Zimmerman needs to be tried so we can get to the bottom of this.” No, he needed to be investigated and **then** tried, you guys wanted to put the cart before the horse and **still refuse to accept that was what you were advocating**. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3768 "2012-04-12T02:04:23Z")
They have to televise this hot mess of a trial. I suspect we’re in for a real circus performance, especially if Zimmerman is planning to go hard with the Shaken Baby thing. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3769 "2012-04-12T02:07:58Z")
London found out last summer that riots are even more combustible with social media and the internet. People were showing up and joining those flash mobs like it was a big party. :rolleyes: London burned for three days last summer. They’re holding trials right now sending a message with tough sentences to jail. I really hope Sharpton and Jackson cut this political agitation and stop the publicity before it gets any more dangerous. Let our justice system work and respect whatever decision the jury makes. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Never? Have you ever been in a riot? I don’t care it it’s blacks, whites, or Puerto Rican cleaning ladies, people get killed and stuff gets burned in an outright riot–you’d be a fool not to be leery of rioting anyone. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3770 "2012-04-12T02:13:28Z")
i was most impressed that ms corey started on time to the minute! that is very rare. i was a bit surprized that it was second degree. i figured if he were charged it would be manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3771 "2012-04-12T02:13:34Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yeah, I can’t believe folks are acting like we only have tea leaves in this case. I’m actually amazed by how much evidence there is. For what amounts to less than 15-minute slice of life, we have > > - a 911 call from the shooter informing us of his state of mind and intent > > - a ear witness to Martin’s last moments before the shooting > > - multiple 911 calls by neighbors, with sounds of desperate screaming for help in the background > > - multiple witnesses statements > > - surveillance video > > - the police report > > - EMT records > > - forensic data EMT records? Forensic data?:dubious: and the surveillance video is post incident. I am not suprised she went forward with charges. I hope she didn’t over-charge him. Yes, that will assuage the masses for a bit, but if Zimmerman’s jury refused to convict, that coudl be bad also. I did like one statement the Prosecutor said "_So much information on this case has gotten released that should never have been released"_ ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3772 "2012-04-12T02:16:48Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So all of the sudden, you know better than the prosecutor? I find it hard to believe she’d deliberately charge Z with a crime she felt incapable of proving. Why arent you deferring to the state’s judgement like you kept admonishing us to do back in the olden days of this thread? The known unknowns are far different in the two situations. I’ve also never advocated “universal deference to the state.” The original position of “Team Trayvon” or “the mob” was that based on the scant amount of available evidence to the public **the only appropriate option was to arrest Zimmerman** , that was the mildest position of the mob. Some members of the mob even went further and interpreted every piece of scant evidence as damning of Zimmerman and proof that he deliberately stalked and murdered Trayvon Martin. To me, the only logical response to that set of information was “doubt and uncertainty.” The known unknowns were just simply too great. However, I always said that the authorities have a much more complete set of information, and I always maintained that the evidence might warrant Zimmerman being charged. Because again, with that large set of known unknowns the only rational position is doubt and uncertainty i.e. maybe there is evidence enough to charge him, maybe there isn’t, maybe he acted out of malice, maybe he didn’t. Now that the charge has actually happened my _assumption_ is the evidence that will come out in court will be at least strong enough that none of us will disagree with him being charged with _a_ crime. However I’m essentially not believing at this point that he actually committed second degree murder. Why? In that scenario the known unknowns aren’t very many. Just about the only “unknown” that could show me Zimmerman actually committed second degree murder is **proof beyond a reasonable doubt of his ill intent** and that proof would almost have to be a smoking gun I would think. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3773 "2012-04-12T02:19:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > EMT records? Forensic data?:dubious: > > and the surveillance video is post incident. > > I am not suprised she went forward with charges. I hope she didn’t over-charge him. Yes, that will assuage the masses for a bit, but if Zimmerman’s jury refused to convict, that coudl be bad also. > > I did like one statement the Prosecutor said "_So much information on this case has gotten released that should never have been released"_ My understanding (based again, just on reading about Florida law because of this thread) is that manslaughter is a lesser included offense to the charge of second degree murder in Florida. The jury will have the option, if they decide that the act was not second degree murder, to instead convict him of manslaughter. While I don’t know how true it is, I know in some L&O type shows some states are portrayed as having a system where the prosecutor can “choose” to charge second degree murder but the jury has to decide exclusively between that and acquittal, and can’t decide on a lower charge. That creates more drama but I don’t know if that is typical of the criminal justice system anywhere in the United States, but maybe it is. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3774 "2012-04-12T02:21:54Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > But you’re still stuck on this idea that if you kill anyone **ever** you have to be tried by a jury so we can find out what happens. That just isn’t the truth, it isn’t the truth from an ethical, legal, or practical stand point. > . Please, dude. Whenever you start telling me what I’m stuck on, I just tune you out because you’re always off the mark and the stink of condescension becomes overwhelming. It’s amazing that you continue to be smug. When nothing was happening and we had to blindly accept that a decent investigation was occurring, you kept beating us over the head about waiting and seeing and having faith that justice would prevail. Now that the cogs of justice have turned a smidge, you should be saying, “See? What did I tell you? Didn’t I tell you that something would happen? This is justice at work, people! Yay!” Instead, you’re complaining and finding faults. What, are you having doubts about the cogs of justice _now_? Why was it so unreasonable for people to have doubts at the start of this thing, but now it’s fine for you to sulk and needlessly speculate? It’s now my turn to be dispassionate. I say let’s wait and see what the prosecutor’s findings are before issuing any verdicts. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3775 "2012-04-12T02:28:27Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It’s amazing that you continue to be smug. When nothing was happening and we had to blindly accept that a decent investigation was occurring, you kept beating us over the head about waiting and seeing and having faith that justice would prevail. Now that the cogs of justice have turned a smidge, you should be saying, “See? What did I tell you? Didn’t I tell you that something would happen? This is justice at work, people! Yay!” Instead, you’re complaining and finding faults. What, are you having doubts about the cogs of justice _now_? Why was it so unreasonable for people to have doubts at the start of this thing, but now it’s fine for you to sulk and needlessly speculate? That’s not really the point. My point was the initial outrage was stupid, it doesn’t really matter to me that the process was proven correct and that after a lengthy investigation what is almost certainly the correct outcome at this point (a charge and a trial) followed. I knew I was correct about that part of it in my first post, you guys do realize just because you disagree with me on things doesn’t me I accept that I’m incorrect about them, right? If there was anything I was ever certain about on this issue it was that the initial outrage was misplaced and that a fully formed investigation one way or the other was going to make that outrage look foolish. As for now? I’m not sulking or needlessly speculating. This is now going to be a real criminal trial, the results will be born out definitively. But to compare people who got outrage because the state wasn’t taking some specific action **44 days ago** when the state itself lacked full information, and the angry mobbed had even less, to making a proclamation about the validity of a prosecutor’s charges after **44 days** of investigation and leaks is laughable. In a case of this publicity I think if there was any single piece of evidence showing Zimmerman had the intent element necessary for second degree murder we probably would have seen it. I’m not saying (obviously) we’ve seen all the relevant evidence–nowhere near it, but to me that was just the difference between “not knowing a series of evidence that could paint a picture that ZImmerman acted in self defense or that he committed manslaughter.” Second degree murder I don’t feel is going to be proven by a lot of evidence but instead would require something pretty specific, and because of that I think such a strong piece of specific evidence probably would have reached the media at this point. > [@](#): > > It’s now my turn to be dispassionate. I say let’s wait and see what the prosecutor’s findings are before issuing any verdicts. I don’t think anyone is going to be issuing verdicts before the prosecutor’s findings are made known–that is how a trial works, by the way. I certainly didn’t offer to part with my $250 until a verdict happens in court. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3776 "2012-04-12T02:38:26Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Now that the charge has actually happened my _assumption_ is the evidence that will come out in court will be at least strong enough that none of us will disagree with him being charged with _a_ crime. However I’m essentially not believing at this point that he actually committed second degree murder. Your assertion was much stronger than this. You said you think he most certainly did not commit second degree murder. It takes some balls to say this from your vantage point as a spectator. Unless you literally was in Zimmermans mind at the time he shot Martin, you cant say this. At a minimum, you can only talk about what the evidence suggests or doesn’t suggests. > [@](#): > > Why? In that scenario the known unknowns aren’t very many. Just about the only “unknown” that could show me Zimmerman actually committed second degree murder is **proof beyond a reasonable doubt of his ill intent** and that proof would almost have to be a smoking gun I would think. Consider this: If the EMT records show that he had not one scratch on him, what do we have left? We have a 911 call that Zimmmerman made that demonstrates his prejudices towards the boy and his determination to not let him out of this sight, flash forward to the sounds of someone pleading for help as if they’re about to be gunned down in cold blood, and then finally Martin’s dead body. Plus witness statements. Do you really think the prosecutor isnt going to be able to piece together a convincing narrative of murder using this data? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3777 "2012-04-12T02:53:19Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > … > I’m only disappointed that the prosecutor charged second degree murder–even without the full facts of the case I can’t imagine how the prosecutor thinks she will prove the intent element… There is no special “intent” element in Florida’s 2nd degree murder statute. The law specifically excludes an intent to kill, so it seems to me the intent element is no more or less than, say, a manslaughter charge would require. But, as I feel the need to keep repeating, IANALawyer. Do you think Zimmerman could be legitimately charged and convicted of a lesser charge like manslaughter? If so, how would intent be any different for the murder charge (I understand there are different elements of the two charges that ARE different). ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3778 "2012-04-12T03:05:27Z")
Zimmerman’s new lawyer sounds very experienced. But he is just one guy. He doesn’t have the resources of a big firm. > [@](#): > > Mark M. O’Mara has been practicing Criminal and Family Law in Central Florida for 28 years, and is presently Board Certified as a Criminal Trial Specialist and a Marital and Family Law Specialist. Mark is a former felony prosecutor and Division Chief and has handled all types of criminal cases, including traffic, property crimes, DUI, drug cases and Death Penalty cases. He has extensive trial experience in both state and federal criminal defense. Mark also represents clients in contested divorce cases, involving child time sharing issues, alimony and division of assets. [http://www.markomaralaw.com/Attorney-Profile/Mark-M-O-mara.shtml](http://www.markomaralaw.com/Attorney-Profile/Mark-M-O-mara.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3779 "2012-04-12T04:15:26Z")
What’s funny is that I really don’t know what would have happened if there hadn’t been such outrage. True, what occurred is what should have happened, in the normal timeframe etc (except that I think Zimmerman would have been charged with Manslaughter, but that’s still fairly close). But since the SPD make the Keystone Kops look like paragons of professionalism, I am not sure. Note, I am not saying they would have dropped the ball due to racism. Not impossible, but honestly, if a Good Ol Boy Southern Cop _is_ going to be pull strings it’s going to be for another Gold Old boy, not Zimmerman. But still and all, this is exactly what should have happened, in the right timeframe. Zimmerman should NOT have been arrested prematurely, but only after due consideration of all the available evidence. I would have liked to see the GJ consulted, but Corey doesn’t like Grand Juries. Ok so I made a prediction of Manslaughter, and was off by a bit. My new prediction is: **hung jury.** OTOH, Zimmerman thinks he’s much smarter than he really is, and this may bite him in the ass real hard, or he may again do something really foolish. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3780 "2012-04-12T04:18:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ok so I made a prediction of Manslaughter, and was off by a bit. My new prediction is: **hung jury.** OTOH, Zimmerman thinks he’s much smarter than he really is, and this may bite him in the ass real hard, or he may again do something really foolish. Unless there is something really dynamite that the prosecutor uncovered, there is no way he will be found guilty of murder two. That of course is predicated on him listening to his lawyer and not doing stupid stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=188) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=190)