# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 192
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3821 "2012-04-12T16:38:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > To insist that the phrase carries only its literal meaning is head-in-the-sand behavior. And what kind of behavior would you call twisting phrases to support your argument? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3822 "2012-04-12T16:38:38Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I don’t particular care how it is presented, and how it is presented is not my point. If you were the one presenting it, how would you? > [@](#): > > And if so, then can we all agree to stop dismissing it as irrelevant, since that is not your job to decide, not being on the jury and all? I didn’t dismiss it as irrelevant. I corrected the inaccuracy in the statement. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3823 "2012-04-12T16:39:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > We have no evidence he stopped following Martin. Untrue. We have the audio showing that he stopped running, and the confrontation happened not far from his truck. In fact, it is the complete opposite. We have no evidence Zimmerman continued to follow Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3824 "2012-04-12T16:41:58Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He ignored the advice of someone who is trained to handle emergency situations. Are you seriously saying this is irrelevant in court? > > If the dispatcher had instead asked Zimmy to follow the boy to prevent him from getting away, do you not think this would alter Zimmy’s culpability with respect to acting “unnecessarily and recklessly”? > > It is not illegal to act unnecessarily or recklessly, and yet these are elements to deciding whether a homicide is justified or not. If I were defending Martin, I’m beginning to think I might ask for a bench trial. You’re right: a jury would likely give some weight to the dispatcher thing. But they really shouldn’t. Normally, the defense could exclude that fact, but the prosecution can argue a _res gestae_ need to put it in. A judge might be the best fact-finder for Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3825 "2012-04-12T16:43:56Z")
> [@treis](#): > > And what kind of behavior would you call twisting phrases to support your argument? This question constitutes strawman behavior, so I’ll decline to answer it. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3826 "2012-04-12T16:45:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Apart from which, no, there is no “stupidity” involved in ignoring what 911 dispatchers tell you. Nah, it’s plenty stupid to call someone for help and then cherry-pick their advice for ill-conceived reasons. A 911 dispatcher has expertise that an average schmoe does not, so the average schmoe needs to defer to the dispatcher’s advice. If they don’t take that advice, then they need to take responsibility for the consequences of such disregard. In Zimmerman’s case, that means standing trial for murder. If the 911 dispatcher had advised Zimmerman to chase after Martin, and Zimmerman had been the one wound up shot, everyone and their mama’s mama would be faulting the dispatcher. If not criminal proceedings, there would definitely be some civil ones. So it’s silly to act as though what the dispatcher says is unimportant. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3827 "2012-04-12T16:46:28Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > If not, why not? Is it inadmissible for some reason? It’s probably admissible. As a defense attorney, I would argue that it should be excluded because the probative value is far exceeded by the prejudicial value. In other words, I’d say that the jury will likely assigned all sorts of improper inferences to this fact - as we’ve seen here. And the slight value it adds to the story doesn’t outweigh the prejudice. The prosecution would argue that it’s critical as part of the _res gestae_ – the complete story. Without it, the jury might get the sense that Zimmerman was operating with the approval of the authorities, which is also not true. The prosecution would probably win that argument. I might get a limiting instruction – in other words, the judge might say, “OK, to cure the improper inference, I will tell the jury, ‘You have just heard that Mr. Zimmerman was told by the 911 dispatcher that they don’t need him to follow the suspect. I’m instructing you that the 911 operator’s statement was not legally significant, not an order that Mr. Zimmerman was required to obey, and that Mr. Zimmerman broke no law by ignoring it.’” ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3828 "2012-04-12T16:46:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re right: a jury would likely give some weight to the dispatcher thing. But they really shouldn’t. You still haven’t explained why they shouldn’t. Which probably means you can’t, since you’ve had quite a while to think of a better response than this one. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3829 "2012-04-12T16:47:17Z")
I just told you that how it is presented is not my point. So if that’s the game you want to play, I’m not interested. This point has been shot down every single time regardless of whether the person said “police” or “911 operator”. So your claim of “I didn’t dismiss it as irrelevant. I corrected the inaccuracy in the statement.” rings pretty hollow. When have you ever agreed that this is a relevant fact? And if it is a relevant fact, then your correction is simply nit-picking, no? Since you must be aware that the judge will ensure that the question is asked properly at trial, right? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3830 "2012-04-12T16:48:40Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Untrue. We have the audio showing that he stopped running, and the confrontation happened not far from his truck. We have evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin; he said so himself. We have no evidence he ever stopped following Martin; he can still follow Martin even if he stopped running. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3831 "2012-04-12T16:49:19Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I just told you that how it is presented is not my point. That was my point. You decided to argue with that point. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3832 "2012-04-12T16:51:15Z")
It isn’t clear that this case will actually get to trial. > [@](#): > > George Zimmerman can ask to have the second-degree-murder charge against him dropped without having to stand trial in the death of Trayvon Martin. > Two years ago, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that anyone claiming “stand your ground” immunity in a death, battery or assault case can request a hearing on the evidence. > The hearing allows the prosecution and defense to argue all the elements of self-defense in the case evidence. To get charges dismissed, the accused must convince the judge that a reasonable person would believe that using deadly force or the threat of deadly force was the only way to protect his or her life, court records show. > The state’s “stand your ground” law passed in 2005 says: > “A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.” > In its Dec. 16, 2010, ruling, the state Supreme Court stated that defendants claiming self-defense are entitled to evidentiary hearings to argue that the evidence in their cases proves they had the right to protect themselves. Unfortunately the article is behind a paywall. [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-11/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-hearings-20120411\_1\_eric-sandhaus-craig-sandhaus-milton-torres](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-11/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-hearings-20120411_1_eric-sandhaus-craig-sandhaus-milton-torres) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3833 "2012-04-12T16:51:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You still haven’t explained why they shouldn’t. Which probably means you can’t, since you’ve had quite a while to think of a better response than this one. Because as a matter of law, there is no authority for the proposition that following Martin was reckless. But there are some people, some people who may become jurors, who might conclude that it was. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3834 "2012-04-12T16:56:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > We have evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin; he said so himself. We have no evidence he ever stopped following Martin; he can still follow Martin even if he stopped running. The fact that the evidence isn’t convincing to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. What evidence that definitively doesn’t exist is any indicating that Zimmerman continued to follow Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3835 "2012-04-12T16:57:38Z")
I don’t think I did, but if you see it that way, I can’t really help you. Here is my initial post on the topic again: "Do you think that this fact will come up in trial? If so, then why is it not a relevant fact to the case as to his mental state at the time? Remember noone is saying that he had a duty to listen or that he was breaking a law by disregarding, just that it is a relevant piece of information to the case." Where did I argue with your nitpicking over phrasing of the question? Can I assume that you are going to stop nit-picking every time someone brings this point up given that you seem to admit that it is a relevant point with your refusal to answer the question, and given that we can all assume that the judge will ensure this is presented properly at trial? Can I expect to not see you continue to repost the same irrelevant nit-pick then? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3836 "2012-04-12T17:00:02Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The fact that the evidence isn’t convincing to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. What evidence that definitively doesn’t exist is any indicating that Zimmerman continued to follow Martin. I certainly hope Zimmerman pins his defense on that logic. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3837 "2012-04-12T17:00:08Z")
I may have the geography wrong, but from the little maps I’ve seen, it looks like Zimmerman’s truck was parked out in the street, near the entrance of the community, but Martin was shot on the walkway behind the houses. On that 911 call, you can hear him getting out of his truck (you can hear the door binging), then you hear him huffing and puffing for about 5 seconds when the 911 operator tells him he doesn’t need to follow anyone. So how did he get from where he said, “ok” to the back of the buildings if he wasn’t following Martin? Oh yeah, I forgot, he got lost and was looking for a street sign. In a yard. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3838 "2012-04-12T17:00:56Z")
I also addressed my post to: “Can someone who is dismissing the fact of Z ignoring the 911 operator answer this:” So when you answered me you agreed that you have been dismissing this fact. Otherwise I wasn’t talking to you was I? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3839 "2012-04-12T17:06:02Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > …with your refusal to answer the question Since you refused to answer my questions several times, what’s good for the goose… ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3840 "2012-04-12T17:07:13Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I may have the geography wrong, but from the little maps I’ve seen, it looks like Zimmerman’s truck was parked out in the street, near the entrance of the community, but Martin was shot on the walkway behind the houses. > > On that 911 call, you can hear him getting out of his truck (you can hear the door binging), then you hear him huffing and puffing for about 5 seconds when the 911 operator tells him he doesn’t need to follow anyone. So how did he get from where he said, “ok” to the back of the buildings if he wasn’t following Martin? > > Oh yeah, I forgot, he got lost and was looking for a street sign. In a yard. It was only 150-200 feet from Zimmerman’s truck to where the altercation was. A distance pretty easily covered in ~10 seconds of running. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=191) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=193)