# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 198
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3941 "2012-04-12T23:04:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But that’s an odious concept, isn’t it? We don’t ask if she was following law enforcement’s advice – we ask if she was acting as she had a legal right to act. And she was. I think you’re mixing my point up with someone else’s point. You presented the idea of carrying the gun as not being reckless because it’s legal to carry the gun. So we (I, anyway…) were discussing the concept of “recklessness” or, to put it in 2nd degree murder terms: “reckless disregard”. And that’s what I was describing: Zimmerman made _ **a series** _ of stupid decisions which a reasonable man could predict might lead to violence, even death. Not an absolute slam dunk for reckless disregard, but not a ridiculous stretch, either. I brought up the fact of the dispatcher (and the neighborhood watch, and any law enforcement expert) to illustrate that it is fair to say that understanding the inherent danger in following and approaching people you suspect of being criminals is known to be unwise. If that were not true, law enforcement experts would not consistently tell people not to do it. Therefore, it is reasonable to say that Zimmerman’s actions were reckless, particularly in light of not only that particular exchange with the 911 operator, but because he was fascinated with law enforcement and it’s a virtual certainty that he had been repeatedly exposed to various law enforcement sources cautioning people against doing _exactly_ what he went ahead and did. So while average Joes could tell you it was a bad idea without all that law enforcement fascination, there’s no question that Zimmerman knew better. Making the case for recklessness even stronger. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3942 "2012-04-12T23:13:45Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I think you’re mixing my point up with someone else’s point. > > You presented the idea of carrying the gun as not being reckless because it’s legal to carry the gun. So we (I, anyway…) were discussing the concept of “recklessness” or, to put it in 2nd degree murder terms: “reckless disregard”. And that’s what I was describing: Zimmerman made _ **a series** _ of stupid decisions which a reasonable man could predict might lead to violence, even death. Not an absolute slam dunk for reckless disregard, but not a ridiculous stretch, either. > > I brought up the fact of the dispatcher (and the neighborhood watch, and any law enforcement expert) to illustrate that it is fair to say that understanding the inherent danger in following and approaching people you suspect of being criminals is known to be unwise. If that were not true, law enforcement experts would not consistently tell people not to do it. Therefore, it is reasonable to say that Zimmerman’s actions were reckless, particularly in light of not only that particular exchange with the 911 operator, but because he was fascinated with law enforcement and it’s a virtual certainty that he had been repeatedly exposed to various law enforcement sources cautioning people against doing _exactly_ what he went ahead and did. So while average Joes could tell you it was a bad idea without all that law enforcement fascination, there’s no question that Zimmerman knew better. Making the case for recklessness even stronger. Ok. Apply those same rules to our lady working late at the lab. It’s a virtual certainty she’s been told many times to park in a well-lit area. She was told it was unwise to walk alone at night. And she knew better. Why aren’t her actions reckless? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3943 "2012-04-12T23:22:43Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The fact that Zimmerman said, “These assholes always get away” isn’t admissible because it doesn’t prove anything. If he had said, “These assholes always get away. But not this one!” That’s something admissible because it goes to show an intent to stop and confront. Looks like that’s _exactly_ what they believe it shows, according to the [affadavit](http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf). I also think that his language in the call will be used to show intent. The jury instructions for 2nd degree: > [@](#): > > An act is ―imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind‖ if it is an > act or series of acts that: > > 1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do > serious bodily injury to another, and > 2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and > 3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life. > In order to convict of Second Degree Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove the > defendant had an intent to cause death. Since the probable cause affadavit pointed out that GZ said “these fucking punks” and “these assholes”, I think it’s a pretty sure thing they are going to say that he was operating with ill will, at the very least, and they would be right. > [@treis](#): > > Looks like there is going to be no shocking reveal. They’ve got some key problems: > > (1) IIRC the witness “John” said that Zimmerman was screaming. And unless John saw Zimmerman’s lips forming the words that he simultaneously heard being screamed, then his assessment of what someone unknown to him was screaming vs. a mother’s assessment that its her son won’t mean much. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3944 "2012-04-12T23:33:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. Apply those same rules to our lady working late at the lab. > > It’s a virtual certainty she’s been told many times to park in a well-lit area. She was told it was unwise to walk alone at night. And she knew better. > > Why aren’t her actions reckless? Let me repost your scenario: > [@](#): > > Let’s return to your woman. She’s advised by campus security to park in a well-lit area and have someone accompany her to her car if she’s leaving the lab late at night. But she does neither, reasoning that a woman should not have to live in fear. She’s attacked by a would-be rapist who threatens her with a knife and tells her he’s gonna fuck her til she bleeds. To prevent this, she pulls her pistol and the man advances on her to disarm her; she shoots him dead. She is behaving in a manner that is not just technically legal, it is completely normal behavior that millions upon millions of people regularly engage in every single day, behavior that is directed at no one: going to her car. She is only being “reckless” by not taking _extra_ precautions to ensure her _own_ safety. She is not, by her willful actions directed at someone else, actually _creating_ an unstable and dangerous situation between two law-abiding people. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3945 "2012-04-12T23:34:13Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It looks like DeeDee’s statement is pretty important, since I don’t see anything else the prosecutor didn’t know about three weeks ago. Apparently you don’t actually need an expert to identify screaming on a 911 recording. A mother knows the the sound of her own offspring. You may need an expert to convince a jury, depends on the jury and individual jurors of course (some will intrinsically trust a mother, but some may intrinsically distrust her and believe she is only interested in seeing Zimmerman convicted at any cost) but certainly not to establish cause for trying a case. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3946 "2012-04-12T23:44:44Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And unless John saw Zimmerman’s lips forming the words that he simultaneously heard being screamed, then his assessment of what someone unknown to him was screaming vs. a mother’s assessment that its her son won’t mean much. I seriously doubt the ability of anyone to identify a person screaming in the background of a cell phone call. Certainly I won’t take their judgment over someone who was there and watching the altercation. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3947 "2012-04-12T23:57:23Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I seriously doubt the ability of anyone to identify a person screaming in the background of a cell phone call. Certainly I won’t take their judgment over someone who was there and watching the altercation. Unless he watched _ **who** _ was screaming _ **while** _ they screamed, you’d be making a very big mistake to regard his judgment as worthwhile. If he didn’t SEE the screamer AS they screamed, and both parties are strangers to him, he’s doing nothing more valuable than guessing. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3948 "2012-04-13T00:08:27Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Looks like there is going to be no shocking reveal. They’ve got some key problems: > > (1) IIRC the witness “John” said that Zimmerman was screaming. > > (2) They have an unexplained 2-3 minute gap between “[Zimmerman] continued to follow Martin who was trying to return home” and “Zimmerman confronted Martin”. I’m assuming that did the bare minimum they needed for the affidavit. Notice how it doesn’t mention anything that already wasn’t already public knowledge, so they prevent further contamination of the jury pool. Also if most of is excluded at trial, then no harm no foul. The sucky part is that the self-defense hearing will probably be closed and we won’t hear any of the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3949 "2012-04-13T00:32:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. Apply those same rules to our lady working late at the lab. > > It’s a virtual certainty she’s been told many times to park in a well-lit area. She was told it was unwise to walk alone at night. And she knew better. > > Why aren’t her actions reckless? She wasn’t disregarding a specific instruction but a general one. She also didn’t intentionally violate the instruction so that she would meet the potential attacker. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3950 "2012-04-13T00:58:44Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You may need an expert to convince a jury, depends on the jury and individual jurors of course (some will iintrinsically trust a mother, but some may intrinsically distrust her and believe she is only interested in seeing Zimmerman convicted at any cost) but certainly not to establish cause for trying a case. I guess I really need to use the sarcasm icon more. I don’t really expect the prosecution to use Sybrina Fulton’s testimony at trial. I don’t know if they plan to use anything from the affidavit besides Zimmerman’s statement at trial. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3951 "2012-04-13T02:13:54Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I think you’re taking that a bit too literally. For example, she has the hope of God incorporating himself and testifying to what happened that night, or that aliens come down and provide their surveillance footage of that night. Those are just slightly less likely hopes than there being some damning evidence we don’t know about. I thought you were saying something about “circumstantial evidence and innuendo” being the only hope. w/e > [@treis](#): > > Because legally it makes no difference. The operator could have yelled, cursed, screamed, and ordered Zimmerman to return to his truck, and it still wouldn’t have any relevance. The operator has no authority over Zimmerman, and Zimmerman is under no obligation to follow his instructions. There could be another relevant dimension besides the mere legality of minding the person on the phone. It may be used to demonstrate some other element. It’s value to the prosecution may not rest entirely on that single acts legality or lack thereof. > [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. Apply those same rules to our lady working late at the lab. > It’s a virtual certainty she’s been told many times to park in a well-lit area. She was told it was unwise to walk alone at night. And she knew better. > Why aren’t her actions reckless? I agree that this situation varies from Z’s in that the woman would had to have known that there was someone there who she deemed a probable rapist and decided to proceed like normal anyway. Z knew that M was around. Z felt he had reason to believe that M may have been up to no good and Z seems to have expressed concern that M may be armed [mentioning the stuff about M and M’s waistband]. So Zs actions aren’t very analogous to our poor woman unless our poor woman knew that there was someone she deemed a probable rapist in the parking lot at that point in time when she headed to her car. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3952 "2012-04-13T02:23:24Z")
Alan Dershowitz was ranting on Hardball about Corey’s affidavit. [http://www.mediaite.com/tv/harvard-prof-alan-dershowitz-zimmerman-arrest-affidavit-irresponsible-and-unethical/](http://www.mediaite.com/tv/harvard-prof-alan-dershowitz-zimmerman-arrest-affidavit-irresponsible-and-unethical/) ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3953 "2012-04-13T02:46:53Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Z seems to have expressed concern that M may be armed [mentioning the stuff about M and M’s waistband]. I don’t get speculation like this. Zimmerman makes mention of the fact that Martin has a button on his shirt, but the fact that Zimmerman thinks Martin is armed doesn’t warrant a mention? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It’s just searching for the slightest thing to support your argument. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3954 "2012-04-13T03:01:20Z")
Wow, I thought the most we’d get was a grand jury indictment of manslaughter. But the prosecutor skipping indictment by jury and charging murder 2 makes me wonder if there was new evidence or if the new prosecutor just sees the old evidence very differently, or if the public pressure has had a larger influence than they are claiming. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3955 "2012-04-13T03:52:53Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Wow, I thought the most we’d get was a grand jury indictment of manslaughter. But the prosecutor skipping indictment by jury and charging murder 2 makes me wonder if there was new evidence or if the new prosecutor just sees the old evidence very differently, or if the public pressure has had a larger influence than they are claiming. I have no doubt public pressure played a part. But how much? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3956 "2012-04-13T03:57:09Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Wow, I thought the most we’d get was a grand jury indictment of manslaughter. But the prosecutor skipping indictment by jury and charging murder 2 makes me wonder if there was new evidence or if the new prosecutor just sees the old evidence very differently, or if the public pressure has had a larger influence than they are claiming. I would say PR + bargaining ploy. I don’t see any downside for her charging 2nd instead of Manslaughter. As far as I can tell it doesn’t make any difference during the self-defense hearing and she can always leave an out for the jury to convict on Manslaughter if they don’t buy depraved indifference. This gives the defense incentive to settle. I doubt that much will happen until after discovery and the defense sees what cards the prosecution is holding. If Zimmerman loses the self-defense hearing, then there might be a serious attempt at a plea bargain. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3957 "2012-04-13T04:40:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let’s assume I’m on trial for robbing my local liquor store. I have three previous convictions for robbery: a gas station, a guy in an alley, and an armored car. > > Do you believe the jury should hear about those previous convictions? Absolutely. You said “convictions”. If you were arrested and released, not necessarily. If you were arrested, released, but maintain associations with those you were found guilty, yes. But I see what you mean with the previous reports given by Zimmerman. He’s not on trial for those, and if he were a threat but overlooked by Sanford police, then we’d have to look at both George and the Sanford police. Until the night in question, maybe the excessive calls to the police don’t matter much? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3958 "2012-04-13T04:47:38Z")
Here is some comic relief. The Daily Mail is discussing the details of Zimmerman’s stay at the Seminole County Jail. The Daily Mail actually had a copy of the receipt of Zimmerman’s purchased at the Jail store. [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129059/Trayvon-Martin-case-George-Zimmermans-new-life-jail-revealed-spends-night-bars.html](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129059/Trayvon-Martin-case-George-Zimmermans-new-life-jail-revealed-spends-night-bars.html) Two comments: [ul] [li]Is he keeps buying junk food at this rate, he is going to put on weight pretty fast.[/li][li]What does he need shampoo for?[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3959 "2012-04-13T04:55:09Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Here is some comic relief. > > [Trayvon Martin case: George Zimmerman's new life in jail revealed after he spends first night behind bars | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129059/Trayvon-Martin-case-George-Zimmermans-new-life-jail-revealed-spends-night-bars.html) I don’t know how comic it is, but I have to say I was surprised to recognize how satisfying I found it to read that he spent the night sobbing. Because whatever the legal outcome is, my personal feeling is that George Zimmerman behaved very foolishly, very recklessly, and very dangerously, and I do not believe that Trayvon Martin was doing anything that reasonably called for losing his life. If GZ didn’t really believe his life was in danger but shot out of some fucked up cowboy thing, then he deserves to suffer. If he DID sincerely believe his life was in danger, he brought it on himself by being an asshole and deserves to suffer. A young man who was doing nothing untoward is now dead and all the people who loved him will carry the weight of that grief until they die- George Zimmerman needs to have _some_ kind of hurt put on him for creating that reality, no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/3960 "2012-04-13T04:56:47Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Absolutely. You said “convictions”. If you were arrested and released, not necessarily. If you were arrested, released, but maintain associations with those you were found guilty, yes. I find myself very torn on this subject. I can absolutely see how unfair it might be to drag someone’s past in to influence a jury into believing something, and I can also see how important it can be to demonstrate a pattern of behavior. Hard to know what’s really right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=197) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=199)