# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 206
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4101 "2012-04-15T01:18:31Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Oh STOP with the “he was a football player” crap already, making it sound like he was Refrigerator Perry! He was a painfully thin high school kid who played football. 6"3 high school athlete versus couch potato. Which one is going to be in better shape? This is a counter to what was earlier implied when this all started. Martin wasn’t the little kid portrayed in the media. He was a tall athlete who played in a sport that specializes in knocking people down. > [@Stoid](#): > > To you, maybe. Whole lotta filling in going on there. Filling in is called speculation in court. We have Zimmerman’s testimony prior to the fight that Martin approached Zimmerman. We have Martin’s girlfriend’s testimony that Martin spoke first. This is what is known. All of your scenarios of racism and Zimmerman attacking Martin occur in your head and are not admissible in court. What is admissible is the information that Martin was first to approach Zimmerman and first to engage in conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4102 "2012-04-15T01:26:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I take no position on the nose, but I’ll bet you $200 that the EMTs report says there was bleeding on the back of Zimmerman’s head. > > Do we have a bet? > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No, we do not. > [@Bricker](#): > > But… but… what about your guarantee? > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > My guarantee still stands. Hmmm. Maybe we have definitions trouble here. My understanding of the word guarantee is to secure a promise or representation; to make oneself answerable for such promise or representation. When a store guarantees a product will perform in a particular way, they do so by promising to make whole the purchaser in the event of the failure of the product. A guarantee, in other words, involves a promise backed up by a security, so that the security is forfeit if the promise or representation is not fulfilled. So what shape does your guarantee take? If it should happen that you’re wrong, how will your guarantee manifest itself? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4103 "2012-04-15T01:28:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Filling in is called speculation in court. We have Zimmerman’s testimony prior to the fight that Martin approached Zimmerman. We do? Where? > [@](#): > > We have Martin’s girlfriend’s testimony that Martin spoke first. We do? Where? All I’m aware of are second- and third- hand reports of what those people might have said. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4104 "2012-04-15T01:30:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So what shape does your guarantee take? If it should happen that you’re wrong, how will your guarantee manifest itself? You will win the right to say I told you so. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4105 "2012-04-15T01:32:36Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Apparently at some point in the near future we can expect Zimmerman’s attorney to ask for some sort of hearing where he can make his case to a judge that the killing was justified. If the judge agrees with him, the prosecution can appeal it, but if the appeals court sides with Zimmerman then no criminal charges relating to this incident can ever be brought against Zimmerman again (I assume that may just be standard with a case once jeopardy attaches, but I do not know) and more importantly it permanently shields Zimmerman from any civil penalties. Yes. I believe I laid out this procedure some time back in this very thread. One note: it’s not jeopardy. Jeopardy attaches in a criminal case when the jury is sworn. The immunity from prosecution (and from civil liability) is strictly a creature of statute. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4106 "2012-04-15T01:35:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > We do? Where? > > We do? Where? > > All I’m aware of are second- and third- hand reports of what those people might have said. If you’re going to participate in this thread then you’ll have to concede to what has been brought forth in the Media for the purposes of discussion. Obviously NOTHING has been established in court. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4107 "2012-04-15T01:35:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You will win the right to say I told you so. I see. Well, I guess I’ll take what I can get. But in my opinion, that’s a pretty thin surety to attach to the word “guarantee.” “ **Fear Itself** guarantees he’s right! And you can take that guarantee to the bank, folks, because if he’s wrong, he’ll … er… let you post a message on this message board saying, ‘I told you so.’ And that kind of thing doesn’t happen every day, let me tell you!” Dunno. Kinda lacks a certain punch. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4108 "2012-04-15T01:36:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you’re going to participate in this thread then you’ll have to concede to what has been brought forth in the Media for the purposes of discussion. Even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4109 "2012-04-15T01:39:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, Zimmerman only needs to show he was attacked in a manner that was life threatening. That does not equal serious external injuries when describing an attack against someone’s head. This is not true. Zimmerman made very specific claims. Evidence that contradicts these claims will basically make him look like a liar whose testimony should not be trusted. If someone’s bald head is beaten into a concrete sidewalk and bloodied as a result, it should have an open wound. If there’s no proof he had any open wounds, then we have no reason to believe it was pounded into concrete. Very simple. The dumbass shot himself in the foot by overplaying the extent of his injuries. If he’d simply said he was in fear of serious injury, then he’d be on much sturdier ground. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4110 "2012-04-15T01:39:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you’re going to participate in this thread then you’ll have to concede to what has been brought forth in the Media for the purposes of discussion. > > Obviously NOTHING has been established in court. Yes. For example, the media established that Zimmerman weighed 250 pounds. Until suddenly it stopped establishing that. I don’t agree with you. I think I can participate in this thread very meaningfully by answering questions about what the legal effect of a particular factual scenario might be, without declaring confidently that I know which set of facts actually happened. I won’t even declare I know for sure there as blood on Zimmerman’s head, although i am willing to risk $200 smackeroos on that being true. Because there’s just too much misinformation, and you have gleefully leapt on the stuff that you like and disregarded the stuff you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4111 "2012-04-15T01:42:11Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff? At the end of the day you have the evidence presented that backs up what Zimmerman originally stated. If it’s proven definitively false then that is relevant but if it is contradictory then we’re left with the original testimony. The court has to prove what he said was false and not that it might be false. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4112 "2012-04-15T01:45:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This is not true. Zimmerman made very specific claims. Evidence that contradicts these claims will basically make him look like a liar whose testimony should not be trusted. If someone’s bald head is beaten into a concrete sidewalk and bloodied as a result, it should have an open wound. If there’s no proof he had any open wounds, then we have no reason to believe it was pounded into concrete. Very simple. > > The dumbass shot himself in the foot by overplaying the extent of his injuries. If he’d simply said he was in fear of serious injury, then he’d be on much sturdier ground. I’m with you almost completely. Zimmerman undoubtedly made some very specific claims, because the cops would not have declined to charge him if he hadn’t. So, yes, I agree Zimmerman said some things. But I don’t know what they are, and neither do you. You are absolutely right when you say, “Evidence that contradicts these claims will basically make him look like a liar whose testimony should not be trusted.” Because Corey filed second degree murder charges, I infer that she has at least some material areas where Zimmerman’s claims to the police are called into question by other evidence. But I don’t know what they are. Maybe Zimmerman’s brother made up the sidewalk thing, and Zimmerman himself never said that. I simply don’t know. What I would need to see before jumping on any bandwagon – as I said thousands of posts ago – is Zimmerman’s initial statement to the police, and any other physical and eyewitness statements the police have. Until then, this is like the situation where astronomers must infer the location of unseen objects by analyzing how they affect the orbits of what we can see. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4113 "2012-04-15T01:47:00Z")
What I’m curious about now is that what the autopsy says about Martin’s body. If there are no evidence on Martin’s body of defensive wounds or where Zimmerman struck him, then how well will will a 2nd degree charge stick? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4114 "2012-04-15T01:48:42Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > What I’m curious about now is that what the autopsy says about Martin’s body. If there are no evidence on Martin’s body of defensive wounds or where Zimmerman struck him, then how well will will a 2nd degree charge stick? GZ doesn’t have to strike him to commit assault. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4115 "2012-04-15T01:52:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What I would need to see before jumping on any bandwagon – as I said thousands of posts ago – is Zimmerman’s initial statement to the police, and any other physical and eyewitness statements the police have. > > Until then, this is like the situation where astronomers must infer the location of unseen objects by analyzing how they affect the orbits of what we can see. This. In addition, unless something substantial was brought up in the review of the situation then either the original assessment was faulty or the current one is. It should be interesting to see all the information in order to construct a better picture but by the time that happens it will already have been decided. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4116 "2012-04-15T01:58:17Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It looks to me like Dooley has a pretty good chance to get a acquittal, but I need to see more of the evidence. I get the feeling there was a prior history between Dooley and James. > > Did you notice another coincidence? The shooting happened at the Twin Lakes Subdivision. Trevor Dooley has some advantages going for him that Martin doesn’t, too. James was a large, fit member of the military. Dooley is a 71 year old man, so if you had to rate how sympathetic Zimmerman is versus Dooley, I think most people find a 71 year old man more sympathetic than a mid-20s year old man. James was also a adult man, who is arguably less sympathetic than a teenager (although he was an adult white veteran with children, so you can decide for yourself how sympathetic that is versus a teenage black boy.) The Dooley-James interaction definitely could have been avoided too, though. Dooley saw kids skateboarding on the basketball court all the way from his house, he had to specifically come out of his house to bitch about it. James then told the boys they could skate on the other side of the basketball court, and Dooley came out again to bitch at the kids again, when James interceded and a fight broke out. This is pretty typical “suburban asshole” type fighting. Dooley is “that kind of old man neighbor” that you dread, the guy who feels it is his job to enforce petty HOA rules like “no skateboarding on the basketball court.” Of course, James is the guy who apparently gets into fist fights with guys who do those things, so I don’t know that he’s any better, and he’s potentially worse if he started the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4117 "2012-04-15T01:59:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This is not true. Zimmerman made very specific claims. I am again asking you to link to those claims please. I have never seen it reported what Zimmerman claimed in his five hours of interrogation immediately after the event. Maybe you have. Link? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4118 "2012-04-15T02:01:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This. > > In addition, unless something substantial was brought up in the review of the situation then either the original assessment was faulty or the current one is. It should be interesting to see all the information in order to construct a better picture but by the time that happens it will already have been decided. Well, it’s nearly axiomatic that an assessment done later will have more and better information than one done initially. That doesn’t rule out the original assessment being faulty, of course. But it’s perfectly possible to imagine the original assessment was correct, to the limits of its information, and the current one also correct, given its expanded set of information. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4119 "2012-04-15T02:05:33Z")
I am willing to bet that the EMT records note no open wounds on Zimmermans noggin. There may have been blood on it (perhaps Martin’s, perhaps his own from his nose), but I don’t believe he had any tell tale gashes or abrasions on it. These kinds of wounds bleed notoriously and not even a rookie paramedic would neglect to apply a dressing to such an injury. With the dearth of wounds on the surveillance video and it’s like adding one plus one. The other issue is that according to the police report, IIRC, Zimmerman was treated in the police car. Not the ambulance. Doesn’t sound as though the paramedics viewed him as so injured that they felt a complete medical assessment was indicated. People keep talking about smoking guns that havent been revealed, and I think the EMT records are one of them. If the paramedics documented that there was blood on his head but upon examination there was no open wounds or other signs of injury that required 1st aid, nor did his nose appear to be broken and that the subject reported no pain or inability to breathe out of it etc…well then that’s a Sherlock-sized clue that Zimmerman lied. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4120 "2012-04-15T02:06:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > All of your scenarios of racism and Zimmerman attacking Martin You are not talking about anything I’ve said. I haven’t said anything at all about Zimmerman being a racist, except that I don’t think he is one, and I haven’t said anything about Zimmerman attacking Martin, outside of killing him of course. So you need to reply to whomever it was you actually meant to reply to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=205) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=207)