# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 207
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4121 "2012-04-15T02:08:52Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I am willing to bet that the EMT records note no open wounds on Zimmermans noggin. There may have been blood on it (perhaps Martin’s, perhaps his own from his nose), but I don’t believe he had any tell tale gashes or abrasions on it. OK. I’ll bet you $200 that the EMT report says there was both blood and cuts or abrasions on Zimmerman’s head. Winner pays the loser when the EMT report is made public. If it is never made public by the time the trial verdict is reached, no winner and the bet’s a push. What do you say? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4122 "2012-04-15T02:10:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 6"3 high school athlete versus couch potato. Ex couch potato. Zimmerman went from being obese to being very fit. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4123 "2012-04-15T02:12:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am again asking you to link to those claims please. I have never seen it reported what Zimmerman claimed in his five hours of interrogation immediately after the event. Maybe you have. Link? I can only go with what has been reported in the press and by his surrogates, who presumably are reporting what Zimmerman had told them to. I really don’t know what you need me to cite, though. That Zimmerman claimed his head was beaten on the sidewalk? That Martin punched him? These elements of Zimmermans statement are not in dispute. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4124 "2012-04-15T02:17:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. > > For example, the media established that Zimmerman weighed 250 pounds. > > Until suddenly it stopped establishing that. The number is not as significant as the implication that “large man shoots little boy” which is what the pictures originally portrayed. > [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree with you. > > I think I can participate in this thread very meaningfully by answering questions about what the legal effect of a particular factual scenario might be, without declaring confidently that I know which set of facts actually happened. > > Your legal input is the best part of the thread but this is in IMHO so not only do you have to grant opinion here, it is the purpose of the discussion. Opinion should always have a basis of logic to it but we’re limited by what we know for sure and that is the nature of this thread. > > I won’t even declare I know for sure there as blood on Zimmerman’s head, although i am willing to risk $200 smackeroos on that being true. Because there’s just too much misinformation, and you have gleefully leapt on the stuff that you like and disregarded the stuff you don’t. I haven’t lept on anything beyond what is presented in the news. I gave and specified an opinion based on that. I’m not engaged to it let alone married to it. I could care less what happens beyond another Dukes Lacross lynching. This situation was inflamed way beyond need to the point racists offered bounties for Zimmerman. I wish I could ge a piece of the action on the bet but it appears those people who are absolutely sure of stuff can’t be bothered to profit from their expertise. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4125 "2012-04-15T02:18:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. I’ll bet you $200 that the EMT report says there was both blood and cuts or abrasions on Zimmerman’s head. > > Winner pays the loser when the EMT report is made public. If it is never made public by the time the trial verdict is reached, no winner and the bet’s a push. > > What do you say? Sorry, I have a thing with trusting lawyers when it comes to gambling (and plenty of other things). I’m just going on record to say that I think the EMT records fail to bear out Zimmerman’s story. If it turns out I’m wrong, I’ll gladly acknowledge that. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4126 "2012-04-15T02:19:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yep. but it was already reported by the police per earlier reports. Doesn’t require a neurosurgeon’s signoff that he was in a fight. Do you think Martin was tickling Zimmerman when he was reportedly on top? The case for him being in a fight has already been made and documented at the time it occurred as well as sustained injuries visible days later. All Zimmerman’s defense has to establish is that a fight took place where his head was pummeled. His assailant was a 6’3" football player used to knocking people down. To the extent that Martin’s character is allowed in court they will show him to be a kid on suspension from school for drugs who projects himself like a gangsta wanna be right down to sporting a gold grill. > > We know from Zimmerman’s phone call that Martin approached him. We know from Martin’s girl friend’s phone call that Martin started the conversation. All we know from Zimmerman is that he followed Martin which is a passive act in comparison to Martin’s active approach and verbal engagement of Zimmerman. While it doesn’t prove or disprove who swung first it implies that Martin was more proactive in the confrontation. Zimmerman had a history of violence and rage issues. He beat his girlfriend and assaulted a cop. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4127 "2012-04-15T02:24:24Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I can only go with what has been reported in the press and by his surrogates, who presumably are reporting what Zimmerman had told them to. > > I really don’t know what you need me to cite, though. That Zimmerman claimed his head was beaten on the sidewalk? That Martin punched him? These elements of Zimmermans statement are not in dispute. Um - they are. You have no idea what Zimmerman said in his five hours of interrogation. All you have are press reporting on what other people speculated about what Zimmerman said. And you’re trying to find contradictions in what Zimmerman said without knowing what Zimmerman said. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4128 "2012-04-15T02:25:06Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Sorry, I have a thing with trusting lawyers when it comes to gambling (and plenty of other things). I’m just going on record to say that I think the EMT records fail to bear out Zimmerman’s story. If it turns out I’m wrong, I’ll gladly acknowledge that. Pick someone else on the board that you trust to hold the funds in escrow. We’ll both send that person the money ahead of time and agree to accept that person’s judgement on who the winner is. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4129 "2012-04-15T02:30:08Z")
I am not that hard up for cash **Bricker**. $200 bucks is not worth it to through all of that. And no I don’t want to up the wager. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4130 "2012-04-15T02:31:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Pick someone else on the board that you trust to hold the funds in escrow. We’ll both send that person the money ahead of time and agree to accept that person’s judgement on who the winner is. Would that include hospital records that confirm a broken nose? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4131 "2012-04-15T02:36:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you’re going to participate in this thread then you’ll have to concede to what has been brought forth in the Media for the purposes of discussion. > > Obviously NOTHING has been established in court. BUZZ!!! FAIL! The differences aren’t “any shit that someone said in some article about something sometime that maybe mighta happened maybe not who knows its all just rumor anyway” and “proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law” There’s things which are reliably true that we know from media reports or actual releases, such as the contents of the 911 calls and the police reports. These things are facts (meaning we know that it is a fact that the police report said X or the 911 phone call GZ made went like X, not we know for a fact anything in particular about the actual incident)that we know are correct so talking about them in those terms is entirely valid. Anything about what Zimmerman’s story is? Pure speculation based on rumor and some extremely inconsistent reports from multiple people, leading us to be able to say that there’s some degree of truth to what we think we know (as far as what GZ calims, not whether its true) but way too much that is not known to say anything for certain. Your statement: > [@](#): > > We have Zimmerman’s testimony prior to the fight that Martin approached Zimmerman. Does not come close to ranking as something we can all agree is true, either as to the issue of Martin speaking to Zimmerman first, or even if that’s GZs actual claim. Because we really don’t know what GZ’s story is with any degree of certainty, there’s been too many conflicting reports and absolutely no solid information from a reliably accurate source. So don’t try to lump everything together as equally valid, because it isn’t. Some things are definitely more reliably true than others. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4132 "2012-04-15T02:45:19Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Does not come close to ranking as something we can all agree is true I can’t make any sense out of the first part of your reply but there is no question that Zimmerman reported Martin was coming toward him. Unless you want to suggest he lied on the phone in a premeditated manner this is what was reported. And unless his girlfriend mis-reported what we heard we have Martin starting the conversation. I’m sorry this doesn’t work in with your theory that Zimmerman was a racist who wanted to harm black people but that’s what has been reported so far. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4133 "2012-04-15T02:50:38Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Zimmerman had a history of violence and rage issues. He beat his girlfriend and assaulted a cop. If he has a demonstrated record that is admissible in court then Bricker can explain if and how it can be entered in testimony against him. Unless it’s documented then it will probably fall into the same category as Martin’s tweets and pictures sporting his fake gold teeth. edit, there are a lot of things I think should be admissible in court that show character flaws but the Law doesn’t allow for it. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4134 "2012-04-15T02:52:19Z")
Why has Bricker turned into the Gambler all of a sudden? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4135 "2012-04-15T02:55:44Z")
Dayum… Magiver, you kinda suck at the most straightforward managing of information, man, no wonder you are so convinced about things. Lookee what I said first: > [@Stoid](#): > > So I’m back where I started: he’s a murderer. _ **I don’t think he’s a racist who set out to kill a black guy for the hell of it,** _ I think he’s a pathetic wannabe whose idiocy led to his being a murderer. > [@Magiver](#): > > _ **you’ve done nothing but engage in a racist diatribe on what you think of Zimmerman.** _ That wouldn’t fly in court any more than the speculation that Martin was a racist. > [@](#): > > **All of your scenarios of racism and Zimmerman attacking Martin occur** in your head and are not admissible in court. Wow! That takes some pretty willful ignorin’ and sloppy postin’… > [@](#): > > Witnesses support his injuries days later Who? What do they say? > [@](#): > > which support the police report which describes injuries. [No it doesn’t.](http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/.a/6a00d83451b4ba69e20168e94d3364970c-pi) It says “Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of the head” I got news for youse: that is not the description of even a single injury, much less injuries. > [@](#): > > You’ve also tried to equate the idea of life threatening injuries with massive losses of blood. No, I’ve questioned the amount of blood at all, I haven’t made any case for massive amounts of blood. I’ve put forth the question of how much blood there was and what can be reliably inferred from the presence of blood alone and if it was a tiny amount. Blood does not automatically mean Zimmerman was telling the truth and Martin was pounding his head into concrete, and it would not be a reasonable inference for you to make, particularly when reviewed alongside other facts. Your insistence that everything backs Zimmerman and we “know” this and that… you don’t even know what I’ve posted a few lines away from your post! When you say that I have been inventing racist scenarios in my head, which I have clearly not ever been doing, methinks thou dost project one’s own internal scenario creation on to others… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4136 "2012-04-15T03:28:00Z")
Slow down, Magiver, you are just “racing” headlong into walls now (anyone catch that little pun there? heheheh) > [@Magiver](#): > > I can’t make any sense out of the first part of your reply Really? It just restates what you said to Bricker: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Magiver > If you’re going to participate in this thread then you’ll have to concede to _ **what has been brought forth in the Media for the purposes of discussion** _. > > Obviously NOTHING has been _ **established in court** _. You seem to think that everything that we’ve heard is all equally valid to assert for the purposes of this thread because none of it has been proven in a court of law, which is, of course, a completely ridiculous idea. Some things are almost total rumor. Other things are lots of rumor and conflicting information from multiple soures. Other things have some reliable support for some parts, while other parts are completely unsubstantiated. And still other things are things which we can all agree are true because we _ **know** _, such as what Zimmerman said in his call to the police. Once more, with feeling: > [@Stoid](#): > > There’s things which _ **are reliably true that we know** _ from media reports or actual releases, such as the contents of the 911 calls and the police reports. These things are \*\*\*facts \*\*\*(meaning we know that it is a fact that the police report said X or the 911 phone call GZ made went like X, not we know for a fact anything in particular about the actual incident)\*\*\*that we know are correct so talking about them in those terms is entirely valid. \*\*\* > > Because we really don’t know what GZ’s story is with any degree of certainty, there’s been too many conflicting reports and absolutely no solid information from a reliably accurate source. > > So don’t try to lump everything together as equally valid, _ **because it isn’t.** _ Some things are _ **definitely more reliably true** _ than others. Among the things that we know are factually true is what GZ said to the dispatcher, including: > [@](#): > > **Zimmerman** : > Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band. > And he’s a black male.[1:03] > **911 dispatcher:** > How old would you say he is? > **Zimmerman:** > He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens. > **911 dispatcher:** > Late teens? > **Zimmerman:** > Uh, huh. > Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out. > He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20] > **911 dispatcher:** > Let me know if he does anything, OK? > **Zimmerman:** > OK. > **911 dispatcher:** > We’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else. > **Zimmerman:** > OK. > These assholes. They always get away. > When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. [1:39] > **911 dispatcher:** > OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse? > **Zimmerman:** > Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left. > He’s running. [2:08] > **911 dispatcher:** > He’s running? Which way is he running? > **Zimmerman:** > Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14] > [@](#): > > but there is no question that Zimmerman reported Martin was coming toward him. True, obviously. So? What is it you think this means, since Zimmerman said, “He’s coming towards me” then “He’s running” (away, not towards him) What is it we’re supposed to understand from this? > [@](#): > > And unless his girlfriend mis-reported what we heard we have Martin starting the conversation. Yes, in a manner and circumstances that strongly suggest that Zimmerman was approaching Martin, which is why Martin opened with a question about Zimmerman’s behavior. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry this doesn’t work in with \*\*\*your theory that Zimmerman was a racist who wanted to harm black people \*\*\* Do you have a tic or something? Why in the world do you keep saying this when _ **it is exactly the opposite of the truth** _? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4137 "2012-04-15T03:51:55Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Suppose she did overcharge, what would that mean if the case went to trial? Would the jury have the option of convicting on a lesser charge and, if so, how far down the ladder of offenses does that leeway go? I bet you’re sick of hearing this… But it depends. The prosecution is generally free to amend their information to add additional, lesser-included offenses. A lesser-included offense is what you’re picturing as “down the ladder,” I think. The jury can’t do this on their own. When they get the case, they can only answer ‘guilty’ or ‘not guilty’ to each charge they’ve been given. So to some extent, this becomes a strategy game. The prosecution may not wish to charge manslaughter, reasoning that if they do, the jury will compromise on that charge. If the jury has the choice between second degree murder and outright acquittal, the prosecution may hope they will choose murder, or they may worry that they will deadlock or outright acquit. > [@](#): > > After reading about the Garcia case dismissal - which someone in GD characterized, correctly imo, as not SYG but “hunt and destroy” - I am not very optimistic about Zimmerman’s case being tried at all. That is a fair concern, but how realistic it is depends on the full set of evidence… which we don’t yet know. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4138 "2012-04-15T04:04:36Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I am not that hard up for cash **Bricker**. $200 bucks is not worth it to through all of that. And no I don’t want to up the wager. So… You’ll “bet” that the EMT report doesn’t show an abrasion and blood on Zimmerman’s head. But you won’t bet with me because you don’t trust me. You won’t use a third person as escrow. Ok. Only I will use the escrow. You can do nothing until the bet is decided, and then send me the money if you lose. I will send the stakes to a person you trust, and that person will either return the stakes to me if I win, or give the money to you if you win. You need to do nothing except send me the money if you lose. What do you say now? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4139 "2012-04-15T04:05:47Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Would that include hospital records that confirm a broken nose? I am taking no position on the nose. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4140 "2012-04-15T04:29:05Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Dayum… Magiver, you kinda suck at the most straightforward managing of information, man, no wonder you are so convinced about things. Wow, I just got done posting I wasn’t sure of anything and don’t care what the outcome is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=206) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=208)