# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 208
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4141 "2012-04-15T05:25:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wow, I just got done posting _ **I wasn’t sure of anything** _ and don’t care what the outcome is. :dubious: > [@Magiver](#): > > We have Zimmerman’s testimony prior to the fight that Martin approached Zimmerman. We have Martin’s girlfriend’s testimony that Martin spoke first. \*\*This is what is known. \*\* > > **What is admissible** is the information that Martin was first to approach Zimmerman and first to engage in conversation. > [@Magiver](#): > > **but there is no question** that Zimmerman reported Martin was coming toward him. > [@Magiver](#): > > **Zimmerman had head wounds that are part of the police record and that is consistent with his account.** > . [quote=“Magiver, post:4051, topic:615504”] > [@Magiver](#): > > the blanks have to disprove Zimmerman’s story which _ **doesn’t have any blanks.** _ > [@Magiver](#): > > No, **Zimmerman only needs to show** he was attacked in a manner that was life threatening. . > [@Magiver](#): > > \*\*All he has to show \*\*is evidence of being struck in the head consistent with his testimony to the police. > [@Magiver](#): > > **We know** from Zimmerman’s phone call that Martin approached him. **We know** from Martin’s girl friend’s phone call that Martin started the conversation. All we know from Zimmerman is that he followed Martin which is a passive act in comparison to Martin’s active approach and verbal engagement of Zimmerman. While it doesn’t prove or disprove who swung first it implies that Martin was more proactive in the confrontation. For a guy who isn’t really sure of anything and doesn’t care, you’re awfully fond of strong declarations about what is and is not so. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4142 "2012-04-15T07:34:04Z")
On the Dooley case it might just turn on whether the reports are correct on whether the reports are correct and Dooley was already walking back to his house when James jumped on him. It might not matter what happened beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4143 "2012-04-15T07:43:26Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > GZ doesn’t have to strike him to commit assault. An interesting notion, but how does the State prove assault without any physical evidence to back it up? Remember the State has the burden of proof. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4144 "2012-04-15T12:21:54Z")
Physical evidence is not mandatory. Inferences and circumstantial evidence is permitted. Anyway, what’s the refrain of this thread? “We don’t know what evidence there is yet!” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4145 "2012-04-15T13:06:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Physical evidence is not mandatory. Inferences and circumstantial evidence is permitted. Anyway, what’s the refrain of this thread? “We don’t know what evidence there is yet!” Correct. So, as an interesting hypothetical, what evidence might the state present that would allow the fact-finder to conclude that Zimmerman committed an assault (before the gunshot, of course) on Martin? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4146 "2012-04-15T13:28:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What do you say now? What part of no are you not understanding? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4147 "2012-04-15T13:49:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What part of no are you not understanding? The part where you included conditional, explanatory words that suggested your ‘no’ was not absolute: > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I am not that hard up for cash **Bricker**. $200 bucks is not worth it to through all of that. And no I don’t want to up the wager. Because your objection was rooted in the difficulty of “going through all that” for a mere $200, and because your rejection of the idea of raising the wager _was_ absolute, I proposed a new method – one that didn’t require you to go through much of anything. You seem to be against that one too, even though it removes the difficulty you claimed was at the root of your earlier refusal. So, again, although you’re so confident that you’re “willing to bet,” you are not in fact willing to bet? > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I am willing to bet that the EMT records note no open wounds on Zimmermans noggin. There may have been blood on it (perhaps Martin’s, perhaps his own from his nose), but I don’t believe he had any tell tale gashes or abrasions on it. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4148 "2012-04-15T14:57:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Correct. > > So, as an interesting hypothetical, what evidence might the state present that would allow the fact-finder to conclude that Zimmerman committed an assault (before the gunshot, of course) on Martin? The only scenario I have come up with that doesn’t leave any physical evidence on Martin’s body would be for Zimmerman to pull out his gun and threaten Zimmerman with it. That seems hard to prove since DeeDee didn’t mention it in her statement. This scenario would be that the entire fight we heard was a struggle for the firearm. It is possible that Martin left some physical evidence on the firearm. If the prosecution can’t provide evidence, then it might work with a jury, but a judge probably won’t be too impressed during the self-defense hearing. O’Mara will get access to all this evidence during discovery and adjust his presentation accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4149 "2012-04-15T15:01:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, again, although you’re so confident that you’re “willing to bet,” you are not in fact willing to bet? You should realize that “betting” is often used figuratively as a way of expressing confidence in a certain prediction. I am under no obligation to humor your entreaties to make this a money-based bet, when I’m perfectly content at keeping it more casual and conceptual. For insight into why I am relunctant to gamble with you, look no further than your adversarial parsing of my posts and inability to take no for answer like a non-desperate human being. I don’t want to take your silly bet. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4150 "2012-04-15T15:09:40Z")
**Bricker** , why not make bets with **treis** or **Magiver**? They too also seem pretty confident in how this will play out. Are you reluctant to because they are expressing beliefs that you share, but you’ve invested so much in the “unbiased and objective” position that you can’t post in this thread like a regular guy just chewing the fat? I mean, seems to me that if you’re just waiting for the facts to roll in and you haven’t made up your mind, you should be making bets with anyone that makes a confident supposition. I don’t see you doing that, though. ---
**Author:** ![KAndre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@KAndre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KAndre)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4151 "2012-04-15T15:47:28Z")
The Zimmerman case did bring my attention to the Dooley case and just reinforced my belief that the “Stand Your Ground” law is bad. From my understanding of the incident (which is only from a couple of articles), I am much more in sympathy with James, who appeared to me to be sort of defending the kids because the point when Dooley went to get a gun and flashed it at them seems wrong on every level to me. According to witnesseses in the [hearing](http://penigma.blogspot.com/2012/03/another-incident-of-florida-gun-owner.html), > [@](#): > > But when questioned by prosecutor Stephen Udagawa, the witnesses persisted in labeling Dooley the aggressor. > They said James never tried to punch or choke Dooley. They said he only went for the gun. “There were no threats, no fists,” Michelle Whitt said. > She stopped looking after the shot. All she could think to do, she said, was run to James’ little girl, standing nearby. Of course, Dooley claims James was choking him to death and he didn’t flash his gun (although he was charged with “improper exhibition of a firearm and openly carrying a firearm”). And Dooley, like Zimmerman, wasn’t arrested immediately _in spite_ of actual living, breathing witnesses (horrifically, James’ 8-year-old daughter and the 14-year-old skateboarder among others), but it did take less than a week for him to be arrested, unlike the six weeks for Zimmerman (and I do sincerely believe if it hadn’t been for the media attention, Sanford police wouldn’t have done any further investigation). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4152 "2012-04-15T15:53:00Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **Bricker** , why not make bets with **treis** or **Magiver**? They too also seem pretty confident in how this will play out. > > Are you reluctant to because they are expressing beliefs that you share, but you’ve invested so much in the “unbiased and objective” position that you can’t post in this thread like a regular guy just chewing the fat? I mean, seems to me that if you’re just waiting for the facts to roll in and you haven’t made up your mind, you should be making bets with anyone that makes a confident supposition. I don’t see you doing that, though. Two reasons: 1. **you with the face** said “willing to bet.” This is a step beyond confident opinion. I also offered to bet someone who said his prediction was “guaranteed.” 2. if someone makes a confident supposition I think is at least likely, I would be foolish to bet against it, even if I think the level of confidence is misplaced. For example, if we’re at the roulette table and someone says, “It’s gonna be red. Guaranteed. No chance it’s black, none!” I would think the confidence was misplaced, even though I wouldn’t bet against him, since I believe he has almost a 50% chance of being right. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4153 "2012-04-15T16:17:51Z")
I’m gonna have a hard time believing that Martin was sitting on Zimmerman’s chest when shot if there’s no evidence of Martin’s blood on Zimmerman. I’m wondering if the prosecutor made the charge so high because forensic evidence that we know nothing about casts doubt on Zimmerman’s version. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4154 "2012-04-15T16:29:23Z")
I would like to see the forensic report on the gunshot wound as well, which should either support or contradict GZ’s claim that he shot TM while being sat on. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4155 "2012-04-15T16:39:54Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > For a guy who isn’t really sure of anything and doesn’t care, you’re awfully fond of strong declarations about what is and is not so. I haven’t made any legal claims. IANAL. I’ve taken law in school and have a fair idea of the basics which you seem to have no desire to learn. You keep arguing with the lawyers in this thread as if you’re on the Supreme Court. There are limitations on what a prosecution can infer in a case and unless there is a lot of unknown information it will be difficult to convict Zimmerman of 2nd degree murder. The state has to prove the injuries were not consistent with a beating that could be construed as life threatening. In this regard the defense has an easier task. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4156 "2012-04-15T17:06:35Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’m gonna have a hard time believing that Martin was sitting on Zimmerman’s chest when shot if there’s no evidence of Martin’s blood on Zimmerman. I’m wondering if the prosecutor made the charge so high because forensic evidence that we know nothing about casts doubt on Zimmerman’s version. I have a hard time seeing how Zimmerman was able to shoot the kid in the chest, if the kid was sitting on his chest. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4157 "2012-04-15T17:35:51Z")
> [@KAndre](#): > > [hearing](http://penigma.blogspot.com/2012/03/another-incident-of-florida-gun-owner.html), I have a somewhat different view. The part I read was that Dooley was walking away when James jumped on him. What happened before that wasn’t relevant. I also suspect that James and Dooley had some prior issues and James may be a bully. It doesn’t seem so odd that a man might be frightened by a man who is 30 years younger and 70 pounds heavier and 6 inches taller than him. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4158 "2012-04-15T17:45:30Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’m gonna have a hard time believing that Martin was sitting on Zimmerman’s chest when shot if there’s no evidence of Martin’s blood on Zimmerman. I’m wondering if the prosecutor made the charge so high because forensic evidence that we know nothing about casts doubt on Zimmerman’s version. Where do you get the sitting part. I read that Martin was on top, nothing about Martin sitting on Zimmerman. Orlando Sentinel March 26th > [@](#): > > With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel. > That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. There have been no reports that a witness saw the initial punch Zimmerman told police about. > Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened Feb. 26. But that night, and in later meetings, he described and re-enacted for police what he says took place. > In his version of events, Zimmerman had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words and then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him. This was supposed to be from someone who had access to the police reports. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4159 "2012-04-15T17:50:11Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I have a hard time seeing how Zimmerman was able to shoot the kid in the chest, if the kid was sitting on his chest. I’m having a hard time see how he could have shot him anywhere else. Zimmerman is on his back, Martin is straddling him with his hands on Zimmerman’s neck beating his head on the ground. Zimmerman pulls the gun from his waistband and fires. If that’s the scenario. Maybe Zimmerman was able to buck him off and pull the gun. Martin then lunges at Zimmerman, and Zimmerman fires once. Or maybe Zimmerman hunts Martin down like an animal, shoots him once in the chest, and then convinces EMT techs that he is injured when there really isn’t a scratch on him. I guess it would depend on what Zimmerman claimed about the incident. Which we don’t know in any detail. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4160 "2012-04-15T17:52:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or maybe Zimmerman hunts Martin down like an animal, shoots him once in the chest, and then convinces EMT techs that he is injured when there really isn’t a scratch on him. Are the EMT techs convinced GZ was injured? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=207) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=209)