# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 209
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4161 "2012-04-15T18:29:28Z")
I don’t see how a guy who is pinned down enough so that his head can be slammed on the concrete for almost a minute is able to pull a gun out of his waistband holster and then wrestle over it with someone. If your head is getting slammed, presumably your arms and hands are restricted somehow–possibly by the thighs of the person straddling you\*. Which would mean that getting a gun out of its holster would be pretty damn hard to do. Maybe it did happen. OK. But that’s not it! We are also supposed to believe that all of this happened while Zimmerman incessantly screamed for help. He’s screaming and also hearing Martin’s comic book-villian dialogue. Have you ever screamed at the top of your lungs before? I have. I know that on that rare occasion when this has happened, I wasn’t able hear anything but the sound of my own voice. And even if my ears were capable of picking up other noises, I’m thinking I’d be so panic-stricken that I wouldn’t be in the state of mind to register it.\*\* \*If Martin had straddled him over his waist, then Zimmerman would have had a hard time getting the gun. If Martin had been straddling him across his chest, he REALLY would have had a hard time getting the gun, but he would have been in a better position to roll the two of them over before the slamming commenced. If Martin had been straddling him across his thighs, Zimmerman would have easily had access to the gun, but he also wouldn’t have been pinned down either. Only newborn babies can get their heads bashed into the sidewalk (for almost a minute) with their arms and hands free. \*\*Before **Bricker** can annoy me with his refrain, the above assumes that Zimmerman claims Martin pinned him down, that Zimmerman claims Martin slammed his head into the concrete, that Zimmerman claims Martin tried to wrestle the gun from him, that Zimmerman claims Martin uttered comic book villlian lines, and that Zimmerman claims that he was the only one doing all that screaming. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4162 "2012-04-15T18:42:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Two reasons: > > 1. **you with the face** said “willing to bet.” This is a step beyond confident opinion. I also offered to bet someone who said his prediction was “guaranteed.” > > 2. if someone makes a confident supposition I think is at least likely, I would be foolish to bet against it, even if I think the level of confidence is misplaced. For example, if we’re at the roulette table and someone says, “It’s gonna be red. Guaranteed. No chance it’s black, none!” I would think the confidence was misplaced, even though I wouldn’t bet against him, since I believe he has almost a 50% chance of being right. **intervention from a true cool headed observer willing to wait for all the facts to play out** Look at me. Look into my eyes and understand that this is coming from a person who lists you as a favorite poster. YOU ARE NOT A DISPASSIONATE COOL HEADED OBSERVER WHO HAS NO OPINION ON THE GUILT OR INNOCENCE OF GZ. And that goes for everyone else who has posted dozens of times in multiple 100 page threads on this racially charged and controversial topic. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4163 "2012-04-15T18:53:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I bet you’re sick of hearing this… But it depends. > > The prosecution is generally free to amend their information to add additional, lesser-included offenses. A lesser-included offense is what you’re picturing as “down the ladder,” I think. > > The jury can’t do this on their own. When they get the case, they can only answer ‘guilty’ or ‘not guilty’ to each charge they’ve been given. > > So to some extent, this becomes a strategy game. The prosecution may not wish to charge manslaughter, reasoning that if they do, the jury will compromise on that charge. If the jury has the choice between second degree murder and outright acquittal, the prosecution may hope they will choose murder, or they may worry that they will deadlock or outright acquit. > > That is a fair concern, but how realistic it is depends on the full set of evidence… which we don’t yet know. Would you agree that without a revelation of significant discrepancies between Zimmerman’s account and the physical evidence and/or previously unknown contradictory eyewitness testimony, the charge will be dismissed at the pre-trial hearing? I hope Martin’s parents have been prepped for that eventuality, because from what I understand of the law the dismissal is practically a given if all the prosecution has going forward is the known set of facts. Of course, Angela Corey knows all that so what is her strategy? Does she dangle a plea bargain that expires at the pre-trial hearing? That makes no sense as Ziimmerman has nothing to lose, even if he goes to trial he can still claim self-defense. So in my opinion, that only leaves three possibilities: Corey has more and better evidence, Corey is waging a political war or Corey is truly outraged by Zimmermans actions but is prepared to offer a much lesser charge with little penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4164 "2012-04-15T18:54:43Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > So in my opinion, that only leaves three possibilities: Corey has more and better evidence, Corey is waging a political war or Corey is truly outraged by Zimmermans actions but is prepared to offer a much lesser charge with little penalty. Two words. Patrick Fitzgerald. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4165 "2012-04-15T20:36:59Z")
Um, Dick Cheney ordered Zimmerman to shoot Martin? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4166 "2012-04-15T21:20:17Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Um, Dick Cheney ordered Zimmerman to shoot Martin? That was pretty much my reaction also. Fitzgerald has been involved in a lot of high profile cases. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4167 "2012-04-15T21:55:15Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > That was pretty much my reaction also. Fitzgerald has been involved in a lot of high profile cases. An example of an overzealous prosecutor overcharging under political pressure. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4168 "2012-04-15T21:55:55Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Only newborn babies can get their heads bashed into the sidewalk (for almost a minute) with their arms and hands free. Two observations - [ol][li]I don’t think we know for a fact that Zimmerman is claiming that Martin bashed his head for “almost a minute”. And[/li][li]I don’t think you have a lot of experience in ground combat. I do. And based on that experience, your assertion that only a baby could have this done is not true. [/ol][/li] [For](http://www.theblaze.com/stories/slam-his-head-on-the-ground-fl-dad-arrested-for-cheering-son-during-violent-street-fight/) [whatever](http://www.universalhub.com/2010/appeals-court-upholds-verdict-against-boston-cop-s) [it’s](http://ezinearticles.com/?Self-Defense-For-Teens---What-is-Appropriate?&id=4255727) [worth](http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Fighting/UFC/2010/08/06/14941726.html). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4169 "2012-04-15T22:00:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think we know for a fact that Zimmerman is claiming that Martin bashed his head for “almost a minute”… And we have an eyewitness that said the struggle took place entirely on the grass, not near the sidewalk. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4170 "2012-04-15T22:04:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > An example of an overzealous prosecutor overcharging under political pressure. Really? A lot of people, including his entire staff, thought he under charged during the Valerie Plame investigation. Most of his staff thought both Dick Cheney and Karl Rove should have been charged, and he overruled them. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4171 "2012-04-15T22:35:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [For](http://www.theblaze.com/stories/slam-his-head-on-the-ground-fl-dad-arrested-for-cheering-son-during-violent-street-fight/) [whatever](http://www.universalhub.com/2010/appeals-court-upholds-verdict-against-boston-cop-s) [it’s](http://ezinearticles.com/?Self-Defense-For-Teens---What-is-Appropriate?&id=4255727) [worth](http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Fighting/UFC/2010/08/06/14941726.html). > > Regards, > Shodan Ain’t worth much. First link doesn’t work. The other links do not refer to violence that occurs for longer than a few seconds. So my opinion still stands. I simply cannot not imagine how a healthy, well-toned man can find himself pinned on the ground and have his head repeatedly bashed in the ground while also having his hands free enough so that he can pull out a gun. I can imagine a scenario in which his hands are pinned by Martin’s legs, but this would prevent him from getting the gun. I can imagine a scenario in which his hands are free, but this does not square with long-lasting, repetitive, helpless head-bashing. So I’m waiting for Zimmerman to explain how this could happen. Maybe it didn’t really last as long as his father and brother intimated it was. Maybe there’s another explanation, like Martin shifted his position and Zimmerman used that as an opportunity to pull out the gun. But I find this story incredible the way it stands now, assuming this is the story. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4172 "2012-04-15T22:59:04Z")
One possible explanation is that Zimmerman pushed Martin off him long enough to grab his gun and shoot him. If he happened to push him to the side, that would also explain why he had none of Martin’s blood on him. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4173 "2012-04-15T23:05:55Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Would you agree that without a revelation of significant discrepancies between Zimmerman’s account and the physical evidence and/or previously unknown contradictory eyewitness testimony, the charge will be dismissed at the pre-trial hearing? Will be? No. But should be, because the affidavit, on its face, in my view is insufficient to establish probable cause that the force used was unlawful as required by 776.032. But since Zimmerman’s statement has not been reported in its entirety, I think it’s very likely there’s something there that can be shown to be likely false. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4174 "2012-04-15T23:16:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Will be? No. But should be, because the affidavit, on its face, in my view is insufficient to establish probable cause that the force used was unlawful as required by 776.032. > > But since Zimmerman’s statement has not been reported in its entirety, I think it’s very likely there’s something there that can be shown to be likely false. Is the probable cause issue going to come up again, or is it settled? And to return to an earlier question, if the probable cause hearing is such a routine and pro forma procedure that Zimmerman’s hearing suggested, why did the police and the original prosecutor make such a big deal about not having probable cause? Are you suggesting that someone, er, “greased the wheels” under this hearing? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4175 "2012-04-16T00:22:56Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Is the probable cause issue going to come up again, or is it settled? And to return to an earlier question, if the probable cause hearing is such a routine and pro forma procedure that Zimmerman’s hearing suggested, why did the police and the original prosecutor make such a big deal about not having probable cause? Are you suggesting that someone, er, “greased the wheels” under this hearing? Probable cause is going to come up again, almost certainly. I don’t think anyone greased any wheels, though. What’s happening is we have two different probable cause frameworks, thanks to the bizarre immunity grant in 776.032. First we have the ordinary probable cause to believe a crime was committed. This is the easy one, met by Ms. Corey’s affidavit and the kind of thing that is correctly called routine and pro forma. But we also have 776.032’s rule that probable cause to believe the force used was unlawful must be found, or the suspect is immune from prosecution. This creates a defense right for a separate hearing on that specific issue. It’s this issue that I believe held back the original state’s attorney and police team. If the judge – not jury – that hears the issue decides there is no probable cause to believe the force used was unlawful, then Zimmerman’s case is dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4176 "2012-04-16T00:27:24Z")
Are you saying that the judge found there was probable cause to believe that a crime was committed, but did not find probable cause (yet, at least) that Zimmerman was the one committing the crime? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4177 "2012-04-16T01:19:53Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Are you saying that the judge found there was probable cause to believe that a crime was committed, but did not find probable cause (yet, at least) that Zimmerman was the one committing the crime? No. I’m saying the judge found enough evidence to tip the scales for general probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, but yet ruled on whether there was specifically probable cause to believe the force used by Zimmerman was unlawful. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4178 "2012-04-16T01:30:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Ain’t worth much. First link doesn’t work. > > The other links do not refer to violence that occurs for longer than a few seconds. > > So my opinion still stands. I simply cannot not imagine how a healthy, well-toned man can find himself pinned on the ground and have his head repeatedly bashed in the ground while also having his hands free enough so that he can pull out a gun. I can imagine a scenario in which his hands are pinned by Martin’s legs, but this would prevent him from getting the gun. I can imagine a scenario in which his hands are free, but this does not square with long-lasting, repetitive, helpless head-bashing. So I’m waiting for Zimmerman to explain how this could happen. Maybe it didn’t really last as long as his father and brother intimated it was. Maybe there’s another explanation, like Martin shifted his position and Zimmerman used that as an opportunity to pull out the gun. But I find this story incredible the way it stands now, assuming this is the story. good grief, have you never been involved in a fight or even witnessed a serious one. I’ve seen a number of fights where someone is knocked silly to the ground with the first punch and then pummeled. It doesn’t take too many punches thereafter to have fear literally pounded into you. His father and brother’s retelling of the event has no bearing on anything beyond the court of public opinion. They weren’t there. What the trial will be based on is whatever testimony and forensic evidence that can be introduced to counter Zimmerman’s account of the story. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4179 "2012-04-16T01:58:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > good grief, have you never been involved in a fight or even witnessed a serious one. I’ve seen a number of fights where someone is knocked silly to the ground with the first punch and then pummeled. We will see what the evidence turns up. If there is no EMT report that indicates a “pummeling” occurred, and there is no photographic evidence that Zimmerman sustained the types of bruises consistent with a “pummeling”, and the autopsy report of Martin doesn’t indicate that he had delivered a “pummeling” prior to being killed, then do I have your permission to think GOOD GRIEF if Zimmerman swears up and down that he got “pummeled”? I seem to recall that for awhile, you were suspicious of Zimmerman too. What changed your mind? What suddenly convinced you that Martin deserved to die that night? You don’t seem to be leaving any room that Zimmerman may be lying to cover his ass. I’ve never seen such a dramatic 180 before. What happened? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/4180 "2012-04-16T02:14:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > I’m saying the judge found enough evidence to tip the scales for general probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, but yet ruled on whether there was specifically probable cause to believe the force used by Zimmerman was unlawful. I don’t think I’m getting the subtle distinctions between what I said and you replied. How can it be that George Zimmerman remains under arrest if a judge has not found probable cause that he committed a crime? And how can a judge find probable cause that a crime was committed, without also finding probable cause that the only possible person to commit that crime has probably committed that crime? Please note – I’m not rejecting what you say. I’m just not getting how this can be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=208) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=210)