# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/561 "2012-03-19T06:55:47Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > **Why couldn’t a Florida resident simply walk in on their spouse and shoot them in the head?** If the Sanford chief of police is correct, it would be impossible for such a person to be charged with a crime, unless they had left behind some sort of trail indicating they planned to do it. I know that I’m very late to this thread, and I apologize for responding to a post that is now several days old; I had basketball to watch. 😃 Hoever, I’d like to point out that the scenario you describe almost exactly fits the case of [John Tabbutt](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2009-10-09/news/orl-bk-winter-springs-fatal-shooting-100909_1_chief-kevin-brunelle-nancy-dinsmore-john-tabbutt). AFAIK, Mr. Tabbutt was never charged with any crime at all. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/562 "2012-03-19T07:13:41Z")
I find it interesting that Zimmerman’s father wrote a letter that he hand-delivered to the _Orlando Sentinel_ where he says: [ > [@](#): > > “The media reports of the events are imaginary at best. **At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin** ,” Robert Zimmerman wrote. “When the true details of the event become public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media.” ]([http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/2696446\_p2/trayvon-martin-case.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/2696446_p2/trayvon-martin-case.html)) Yet in George Zimmerman’s 911 call, he clearly affirms that he has left his car and his following Mr. Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/563 "2012-03-19T07:31:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I started out on this story content to wait for the production of additional evidence by the police, and happy to take no position until then. The more I read your increasingly desperate prose, the more I find myself hoping that we get an answer soon. After wading through 10 pages of this thread, put me down in this category also. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/564 "2012-03-19T07:36:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > > > I notice how you have written Martin lashing out at Zimmerman before he produces the gun. > > Yes, because that is what Zimmerman claims happened. I’ve read, I think, every word of every (still functioning) linked article in this thread, as well as every word of every post, and yet I can’t remember reading this. Where did you read that this is what Zimmerman claims happened? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/565 "2012-03-19T07:39:11Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Now, if you’ve seen any evidence that Zimmerman chased Martin, or that he started the fight, or that he had no reason to be in fear of serious injury, please show it. Well, in Zimmerman’s 911 call, he does affirm that he was getting out of his car to follow Mr. Martin. If you want to argue that Mr. Zimmerman’s “following” was not “chasing”, I’d be willing to hear you out. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/566 "2012-03-19T07:50:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Granted, but **RickJay** seems to believe that this law makes getting away with murder, especially spousal murder, a simple task. If that is true, then one would expect that criminals (or their lawyers) would have noticed this before, and the conviction rate for Florida murders should be significantly different from that of the other 49 states, and this discrepancy would be due to murderers simply claiming self-defense. Is that the case? Not your best question ever. In fact, as has been made clear, killings where the particular situations are described as something covered by this law never make it to trial in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Bemused](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/46a35a/32.png) [@Bemused](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bemused)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/567 "2012-03-19T08:08:36Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > From reading the article it sounds really unlikely the kid was trying to commit some sort of crime. What I imagine the shooter might have told police is that he confronted the kid and asked him his business, just based on the news article’s description of the shooter he probably asked in the manner and tone of an asshole. That could have pissed the kid off and lead to a confrontation. If I had to guess the shooter would describe the story as “I asked this guy what he was up to and he got angry at me and then attacked me, I feared for my life and had to stop him with my gun.” _If_ the shooter was smart enough to say that, even though he sounds like an asshole that probably escalated the situation, I think it’d be hard to convict him. I will bet you are right. That was my thought after reading the article. The press usually gets it wrong, but there’s enough in this that this scenario appears likely. Should this prove to be what happened, the neighborhood watch guy is in serious trouble. He’s not a cop, and the kid had absolutely no responsibility to answer to him in any case. Even if the neighborhood watch guy could be considered a cop, then the 4th amendment applies, and the kid’s presence on the street is not probable cause to believe he is committing a crime, therefore again he does not have to identify himself or justify himself in any way to anyone. So this 26 year old asshat who thinks he’s hot stuff 'cuz he’s the neighborhood watch captain braces this 17 year old on the street for no good reason, and the 17 year old winds up punching him. If the weapon was concealed, and it probably was, then this could indeed be a murder charge with aggravating circumstances, though I’m not that familiar with FL law. Specifically, the NW guy assaults the kid - which bracing him would constitute, under the law- in full knowledge of the fact that he had a weapon and therefore a substantial advantage over the kid. The kid, severely pissed off by the assault by the asshat (which well could have included phrases along the lines of: “what’s someone like you doing in this neighborhood?” reacts the way many or most kids that age would react, and punches his assailant. Who then pulls a gun and kills him. Why is it taking so long to make the arrest? Let us hope the local police are just being thorough. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/568 "2012-03-19T08:09:22Z")
Okay, I made it through all 11+ pages, and just want to say that IMO, **Martin Hyde** and **Loach** did an excellent job of (very) patiently explaining the legal aspects and police procedural aspects that are in play in this case, in some places damn near _ad infinitum_. I thought **Kimmy Gibler** brought some good points, and I thought that **Bricker** was also a valuable contributor, if a bit reticent (understandable given the, er, _atmosphere_ of the thread at times, tho). I remember when Texas passed their Castle law; I didn’t like the concept because I thought it went too far in what it allowed. As other states, including my own, followed suit, I became more dismayed. WIth the addition of SYG laws, it seems to me that to a large degree we now have exactly the kind of state/country/place that was wanted by all the people who supported these laws: a place where people can and will get killed for little to no reason, or worse, for wrong reasons, and the people left alive will not have to deal with many, if any, consequences. Thankfully, there are at least 2 courts left that can deal with these sort of things: civil court and the court of public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Bemused](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/46a35a/32.png) [@Bemused](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bemused)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/569 "2012-03-19T08:29:34Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > If you think about it too, the neighborhood watch guy does have some things going for him you or I just wanting to kill a random person and frame it as self defense wouldn’t. > > Namely, he has a plausible reason to have been out on the streets with a gun. He has a plausible reason as to why he would have confronted the kid. He also had some wounds that were signs of a scuffle. > > Assuming I could someone manufacture the wounds (or entice someone to wound me as part of a plot to kill them), I would still have to explain the situation as a whole. That’s easy for this guy “I was doing the neighborhood watch, and I carry my legal firearm when doing so.” > > Me trying to just kill a random person, what’s my story? Was it an attempted mugging? Well, what if it ends up I just shot a local bank president or lawyer who lives in a $600,000 and drives a Benz? That makes it likely the authorities aren’t going to believe this guy was randomly mugging someone he had never met. So all of a sudden it looks like I’m lying. As I read on through this thread, and read this post, I guess I have a couple of questions. Well, really one question. To wit: What plausible reason does he have to confront the kid? This is well established law in the US; the mere fact that someone is on the street is not probable cause of…well…of anything. I would doubt that the fact that this is a gated community would change that. Also,as I look into this, I find that there is no one “neighborhood watch” organization. There are a multitude of different programs that call themselves “neighborhood watch”. This quote, from [usaonwatch.org](http://usaonwatch.org), seems typical: > [@](#): > > In essence, Neighborhood Watch is a crime prevention program that stresses education and common sense (Stegenga 2000). It teaches citizens how to help themselves by identifying and reporting suspicious activity in their neighborhoods. In addition, it provides citizens with the opportunity to make their neighborhoods safer and improve the quality of life. Neighborhood Watch groups typically focus on observation and awareness as a means of preventing crime and employ strategies that range from simply promoting social interaction and “watching out for each other” to active patrols by groups of citizens (Yin, et al., 1976). This doesn’t say a thing about sending armed men around to brace strangers and find out what they are up to. Seems to me that what the NW guy did smacks of vigilantism, and under any circumstances that I can see (unless he caught the kid heaving a brick through a window or some such), his approaching the kid and bracing him DOES constitute assault as defined in most places. Since he was armed when he did it, that is aggravated assault, which is a felony in most places. In which case, his subsequent shooting of the kid was a homicide committed while he was engaged in another felony crime, thus making it murder. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/570 "2012-03-19T08:50:11Z")
Can’t believe that I’m the first in here with this. The plot thickens! News report on ABC news on-line, supposedly posted about 11 hours ago: [Neighborhood Watchman Who Allegedly Shot Trayvon Martin Wanted to Be a Cop](http://news.yahoo.com/neighborhood-watchman-allegedly-shot-trayvon-martin-wanted-cop-211535382--abc-news.html) A few points from this article: – Zimmerman has called 911 umpty-ump times before, and was thus known to the police. – In the present case, he called the police several times, including one or more calls on the non-emergency line before that final 911 call. – Several people who heard the tapes say that Zimmerman’s speech was slurred. – The police routinely drug-check people right away as part of the questioning after a homicide. – But they did no such thing with Zimmerman. – The local police are now handing the investigation over to the state. ---
**Author:** ![Bemused](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/46a35a/32.png) [@Bemused](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bemused)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/571 "2012-03-19T08:52:38Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’ve pointed out the illegal homicide statutes in the state of Florida. I think it essentially impossible to prove premeditation in this case, so murder is right out. > > The other two illegal homicides have wording suggesting a key element of those crimes is that the killing is either unjustifiable or unnecessary, which means there is an element that must be proven by the prosecution. I think it is really important we let that sink it. **It isn’t enough that we don’t think this kid that got killed was doing anything wrong** , the state _has to prove this other guy did something wrong beyond a reasonable doubt and to a jury of twelve_. I think it probably is sufficient to show that the kid was doing nothing wrong. If he was doing nothing wrong, then the mere fact that the NW watch approached him shows beyond any reasonable doubt that the NW watch guy WAS doing something wrong, and the situation then spun out of control. An assault is a physical or verbal attack, that causes the victim to fear violence to any level. I’m walking along, minding my own business, and you come up to me with a fierce expression on your face and say to me in a harsh tone: “What do you think you are doing in this neighborhood?” You have just committed assault. Your neighborhood watch standing gives you no authority whatsoever. Even if it did, then you’d have to show probable cause to be stopping me. I respond: “None of your goddamn business” and move to step around you and continue on my way. You step into my path to block me and repeat: “I asked you a question, and you’re going to answer it.” As you step into my path, you bump me. You have now committed assault and battery, and your assault is persisting. So, now I now have legitimate reason to fear physical harm and may act to defend myself to whatever level is necessary to end your assault. So I punch you in the face. But, you see, all this time you were armed - which means you knew you had the means to kill me if you chose. Thus, your assault was an aggravated assault. So you shoot me. You have now committed murder. ---
**Author:** ![Bemused](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/46a35a/32.png) [@Bemused](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bemused)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/572 "2012-03-19T09:27:55Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Zimmerman created the situation but unless he actually started the physical confrontation (which we have no evidence to prove), I don’t believe it is legally relevant that he started the situation itself. His confronting Martin is not in itself a crime, nor do I think it would meet the “provocation” definition in most jurisdictions. His confronting the kid IS a crime. Period. This is where your argument breaks down. It is simple assault, and everyone would ignore it if he doesn’t pursue it. When he does pursue it, perhaps through the scenario i sketched earlier or something similar, then any law enforcement agency should be willing to accept a complaint. Given that he’s armed and he knows it, it is in fact aggravated assault. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/573 "2012-03-19T09:51:13Z")
> [@Bemused](#): > > His confronting the kid IS a crime. Period. This is where your argument breaks down. > > It is simple assault, and everyone would ignore it if he doesn’t pursue it. When he does pursue it, perhaps through the scenario i sketched earlier or something similar, then any law enforcement agency should be willing to accept a complaint. Given that he’s armed and he knows it, it is in fact aggravated assault. To clarify some definitions (as best I understand it): **assault** vs. **battery** : **assault** does not entail making any kind of physical contact or injury. If you simply confront someone in a threatening way, that is assault. **battery** occurs when you actually make physical contact, or shoot, or stab, or other injury. By the typical modern interpretation, simple unwelcome touching someone is battery. In popular usage, this is often called “assault”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/574 "2012-03-19T10:35:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t know why anyone would be surprised that militia groups are getting involved in this. It’s a natural consequence of people losing faith in government protection. Duh. If you want to talk dispassionately about cop and prosecutorial discretion, okay. But don’t roll your eyes when people exercise their descretion, for petes sake. Letting gun and racial politics get in the way of law enforcement has these kind of tradeoffs. People get agitated. > > I am glad that folks are riled up about this. It means we have a pulse. If it makes SYG gun-nuts shit their drawers, oh well. The kid should have been left alone. “Get in the way of law enforcement?” The discussion has been about the law. If this proposal – a citizens’ arrest – from this militia group were legal, then I, too, would have no problem with it. But while a citizen can make an arrest in Florida, it must be – drum roll – supported by probable cause. In _Ripley v. State_, 898 So. 2d 1078 (Fl Ct App 2005), police officers making an arrest outside their jurisdiction were found to be making a citizen’s arrest, and lacking probable cause, it was reversed. I am wondering how happy you’d be if this group arrested Zimmerman and then ended up with the arresting members bankrupted by his subsequent false arrest suit. In Florida, police have qualified immunity for mistakes under some circumstances, but private citizens do not; they can be sued for an arrest if no probable cause exists. And by the way – though police can be sued for making an arrest if they know they don’t have probable cause, they cannot be sued for failing to make an arrest even if they do have probable cause. Making an arrest is discretionary. \*Everton v. Willard[/], 468 So.2d 936 (Fla. 1985). ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/575 "2012-03-19T10:47:13Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Can’t believe that I’m the first in here with this. The plot thickens! > > News report on ABC news on-line, supposedly posted about 11 hours ago: [Neighborhood Watchman Who Allegedly Shot Trayvon Martin Wanted to Be a Cop](http://news.yahoo.com/neighborhood-watchman-allegedly-shot-trayvon-martin-wanted-cop-211535382--abc-news.html) > > A few points from this article: > – Zimmerman has called 911 umpty-ump times before, and was thus known to the police. > – In the present case, he called the police several times, including one or more calls on the non-emergency line before that final 911 call. > – Several people who heard the tapes say that Zimmerman’s speech was slurred. > – The police routinely drug-check people right away as part of the questioning after a homicide. > – But they did no such thing with Zimmerman. > – The local police are now handing the investigation over to the state. This is just all kinds of fucked up! If Zimmerman was drunk, no wonder that night was filled with bone-headed decisions. But I’m still wondering if even this is enough evidence of messed-upness to provide probable cause for arrest. **Martin’s** post about his friend not being charged for assaulting a mugger makes me think the answer to this is no. It doesn’t matter if there’s enough reasonable doubt to suggest this guy may have committed a crime. What matters is if the prosecution believes it can get a conviction. This is where mistrust of the system comes in. Not only is the law a fucked-up one, but a justice system that is dictated by the sympathies of the populace is as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/576 "2012-03-19T10:51:53Z")
> [@Bemused](#): > > His confronting the kid IS a crime. Period. This is where your argument breaks down. > > It is simple assault, and everyone would ignore it if he doesn’t pursue it. When he does pursue it, perhaps through the scenario i sketched earlier or something similar, then any law enforcement agency should be willing to accept a complaint. Given that he’s armed and he knows it, it is in fact aggravated assault. Bullshit. To be simple assault, it must be more than “confronting.” Simple assault in Florida is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent. FSA 784.011. Where do you get the idea that simply confronting someone is assault? Better question: why are you posting this incorrect claim as a confident fact? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/577 "2012-03-19T11:06:14Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > This is just all kinds of fucked up! > > If Zimmerman was drunk, no wonder that night was filled with bone-headed decisions. But I’m still wondering if even this is enough evidence of messed-upness to provide probable cause for arrest. I love seeing confirmation bias in action. The expert who said Zimmerman sounded drunk was Rod Wheeler. Now, [here is a link](http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2007/fall/the-oh-really-factor) to a Southern Poverty Law Center review of another of Rod Wheeler’s conclusions: > [@](#): > > A “national underground network” of pink pistol-packing lesbians is terrorizing America. “All across the country,” they are raping young girls, attacking heterosexual males at random, and forcibly indoctrinating children as young as 10 into the lesbian lifestyle, according to a shocking June 21 segment on the popular Fox News Channel program, “The O’Reilly Factor.” > . > . > . > After this introduction, O’Reilly went to a split-screen live interview with “Fox News crime analyst” Rod Wheeler. > > “Tell me what’s going on,” O’Reilly said. > > Wheeler, a Washington, D.C., Metropolitan Police Department officer-turned-paid Fox News commentator, launched right in: “Well, you know, there is this national underground network, if you will, Bill, of women that’s lesbians and also some men groups that’s actually recruiting kids as young as 10 years old in a lot of the schools in the communities all across the country,” he reported. “And they actually carry a number of weapons. And they commit a number of crimes.” > > Wheeler asserted that “we’ve actually counted, just in the Washington, D.C., area alone, that’s Washington D.C., Maryland, and Virginia, well over 150 of these crews. … And they — like I said, they recruit these kids to be members of these gangs.” > > O’Reilly asked, “Now, when they recruit the kids, are they indoctrinating them into homosexuality?” > > “Yes,” Wheeler answered. “As a matter of fact, some of the kids have actually reported that they were forced into, you know, performing sex acts and doing sex acts with some of these people.” > . > . > . > Confronted by the Intelligence Report, Wheeler was unable, in several phone and E-mail exchanges over a two-day period, to specify a single law enforcement agency or officer, police report, media account or any other source he relied upon for his D.C. area lesbian gangs claim. But he insisted that his report was accurate and that any law enforcement officer who disagrees is “out of touch.” > > “For some reason or other, these organizations don’t lay it on the line because they don’t know what is going on on the streets,” said Wheeler. “This is a serious crisis and the so-called experts are missing it.” > > According to Wheeler’s personal website — [www.rod007.com](http://www.rod007.com) — he is a member of Jericho City of Praise, a conservative Christian megachurch in Landover, Md., whose leadership publicly advocates against equal rights for gays and lesbians. The website details Wheeler’s 500-plus appearances on MSNBC, Court TV and Fox News Channel shows including “The O’Reilly Factor,” “On the Record With Greta Van Sustern,” and “Hannity & Colmes.” So tell me, monstro: are you now saying you find him credible in this instance, when he is saying something you want to hear? I mean, I haven’t heard the tapes, but I don’t find Wheeler a credible source. And I can only imagine how I’d have been criticized if I offered him as a source on this board. But you find him credible, huh? ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/578 "2012-03-19T11:26:01Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Can’t believe that I’m the first in here with this. The plot thickens! > > News report on ABC news on-line, supposedly posted about 11 hours ago: [Neighborhood Watchman Who Allegedly Shot Trayvon Martin Wanted to Be a Cop](http://news.yahoo.com/neighborhood-watchman-allegedly-shot-trayvon-martin-wanted-cop-211535382--abc-news.html) I’ve read that article. ‘Several calls’ refers to all the calls not Zimmerman calling several times. There’s only one guy mentioned in the article that thinks Zimmerman sounded drunk. My first listen, I didn’t think Zimmerman sounded drunk. He sounded nonchalant to me. He tells the dispatcher at one point that Trayvon reached for his (own) waistband which coincidentally is where Martin kept his piece. We know Trayvon didn’t have a weapon which leads me to think he was covering his SYG bases. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/579 "2012-03-19T11:36:20Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’ve read, I think, every word of every (still functioning) linked article in this thread, as well as every word of every post, and yet I can’t remember reading this. Where did you read that this is what Zimmerman claims happened? Zimmerman is claiming self defence, which is only a valid claim if the other person started the fight. It’s a necessary extrapolation from what we know he has said. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Well, in Zimmerman’s 911 call, he does affirm that he was getting out of his car to follow Mr. Martin. If you want to argue that Mr. Zimmerman’s “following” was not “chasing”, I’d be willing to hear you out. Following assumes Martin was not trying to get away, chasing assumes he was. In this particular case, as chase would be strong evidence that Zimmerman was the wrongdoer, and so evidence of a chase would be pretty important. I’ve not seen any so far, and had the police seen any at the scene, they should have arrested him.\* I don’t believe that following someone to ask them questions is in and of itself illegal, so the fact that Zimmerman did that is not any sort of evidence of criminal intent. It may well be evidence that he’s an arsehole, but that’s not legally relevant. \*Assuming the police are doing their job properly. If they’re not, all bets are off. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/580 "2012-03-19T11:47:46Z")
Martin ran per Zimmerman. In order to catch up, you have to chase. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=30)