# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/581 "2012-03-19T13:53:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t believe that following someone to ask them questions is in and of itself illegal, so the fact that Zimmerman did that is not any sort of evidence of criminal intent. It may well be evidence that he’s an arsehole, but that’s not legally relevant. Its not necessary that he have _criminal_ intent. He probably didn’t think any of his conduct was legally wrong, but what he thinks is irrelevant. His dogged pursuit of Martin shows that he was engaging in conduct that would make a reasonable person fearful of their safety. Remember we’re talking about a dark street and a kid all by himself. So even if Martin was the first to hit him (which should not be assumed just because that’s what Zimmerman claimed), it’s not as though the kid didn’t have just cause to do that. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/582 "2012-03-19T13:59:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So tell me, monstro: are you now saying you find him credible in this instance, when he is saying something you want to hear? Talk about confirmation bias. Did you see when she put that all important IF in there? > [@monstro](#): > > If Zimmerman was drunk, no wonder that night was filled with bone-headed decisions. But I’m still wondering if even this is enough evidence of messed-upness to provide probable cause for arrest. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/583 "2012-03-19T14:07:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am wondering how happy you’d be if this group arrested Zimmerman and then ended up with the arresting members bankrupted by his subsequent false arrest suit. Dear **Bricker** : I never said I was happy that citizens are trying to arrest this idiot. I’m only happy that people care about this issue and are organizing to express their displeasure. I’m also not surprised that this is happening. Understand now? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/584 "2012-03-19T14:36:58Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Dear **Bricker** : > > I never said I was happy that citizens are trying to arrest this idiot. I’m only happy that people care about this issue and are organizing to express their displeasure. > > I’m also not surprised that this is happening. > > Understand now? Gotcha. My mistake. I agree that things in general are better for all when people are informed and care. If the law is not what people thought it was, this is a good thing to learn, since they have the power to change it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/585 "2012-03-19T14:38:12Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Talk about confirmation bias. Did you see when she put that all important IF in there? Heh heh. Did YOU see where I asked her if she finds him credible, as opposed to saying she did? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/586 "2012-03-19T14:41:22Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Its not necessary that he have _criminal_ intent. He probably didn’t think any of his conduct was legally wrong, but what he thinks is irrelevant. > > His dogged pursuit of Martin shows that he was engaging in conduct that would make a reasonable person fearful of their safety. Remember we’re talking about a dark street and a kid all by himself. So even if Martin was the first to hit him (which should not be assumed just because that’s what Zimmerman claimed), it’s not as though the kid didn’t have just cause to do that. On the contrary, what he thinks is highly relevant, as I explained above, and also as a general principle that criminal conduct must involve both the requisite mental state as well as the requisite guilty act. There are very very few crimes which can happen no matter what you think. Almost every criminal act must be accompanied by a guilty mental state. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/587 "2012-03-19T15:34:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Its not necessary that he have _criminal_ intent. He probably didn’t think any of his conduct was legally wrong, but what he thinks is irrelevant. Did not check for FL, but some jurisdictions DO recognize as defenses “mistake of fact” and “mistake of law”. The old adage “on is presumed to know the law” is deseutude to me. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/588 "2012-03-19T15:35:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > On the contrary, what he thinks is highly relevant, as I explained above, and also as a general principle that criminal conduct must involve both the requisite mental state as well as the requisite guilty act. There are very very few crimes which can happen no matter what you think. Almost every criminal act must be accompanied by a guilty mental state. So are you saying that if Zimmerman grabbed Martin so that he could restrain him until the cops arrived, and he _thought_ this was perfectly legal, then this isn’t criminal conduct? And if _thought_ that he was legally in the clear to plug a bullet into Martin’s chest just because the kid looked suspicious, then this too isn’t criminal conduct? Help me understand what you are saying, **Bricker**. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/589 "2012-03-19T15:42:14Z")
My point anyway is not that Zimmerman commited a crime by following Martin. So whether he had criminal intent _is_ irrelevant here, because that is not my point. My point is that–regardless of if Zimmerman was legally in the clear by following Martin–he was conducting himself in a way that would make a reasonable person respond in fear. So if Martin reacted in a defensive manner towards him, that is not Martin’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/590 "2012-03-19T15:44:29Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So are you saying that if Zimmerman grabbed Martin so that he could restrain him until the cops arrived, and he _thought_ this was perfectly legal, then this isn’t criminal conduct? In my state, Ohio, that would be called Restraint of liberty, by statute, and it is a crime unless it was done “with privilege to do so”. This is statutorily different from an actual citizens arrest, here at least. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/591 "2012-03-19T15:53:29Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > [Black Militia group vows to perform citizens’ arrest of Zimmerman](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57398739-504083/militia-group-to-attempt-citizens-arrest-in-fla-shooting-of-trayvon-martin/) > > :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Oh that’s going to help. This is obviously all kinds of wrong. Haven’t they learned anything from this case? What the militia needs to do is send an individual down to confront Zimmerman in the street, wait until Zimmerman tries to push the individual away, and then gun Zimmerman down. That would be justifiable self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/592 "2012-03-19T15:58:33Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > My point is that–regardless of if Zimmerman was legally in the clear by following Martin–he was conducting himself in a way that would make a reasonable person respond in fear. I doubt that being confronted by a neighborhood watch officer is enough to put a reasonable person in fear of his life, or of serious bodily injury. You seem to believe that when a local resident says to a stranger, “Who are you, and what are you up to?” the stranger is legally entitled to hit the resident in the face. I don’t think that this is the case. Being confronted is not assault. I think \*\*Bricker \*\*already covered this. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/593 "2012-03-19T16:05:48Z")
> [@GreenMarine](#): > > I’m not sure the subject is one with which average readers may be familiar, but in the world of law enforcement, there is something inherently suspicious about deadly force/self-defense claims that involve only one shot being fired. > > We’ve all heard of cases where police have fired dozens and dozens of bullets at suspects. It is rather easy in such cases to assert that the law enforcement involved really DID feel threatened, whether or not deadly force is actually justified in hindsight. I’ve seen this during military/ LE training and on real life missions more than a few times. Real deadly threats ALWAYS result in multiple shots, often times multiple inaccurate shots. The only exception are the sniper/marksman types, whose hardware and distance from the threat makes single shots possible. This is from a commenter at Ta-Nehisi Coates blog. Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/594 "2012-03-19T16:08:26Z")
> [@GreenMarine](#): > > An officer (or civilian vigilante, in this case) who fires only one shot tells us HE KNOWS deadly force is not proportional to the threat. I think Zimmerman killed a cowering kid over a busted nose. Rest of the quote. PS3 limits the commenting field. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/595 "2012-03-19T16:19:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I doubt that being confronted by a neighborhood watch officer is enough to put a reasonable person in fear of his life, or of serious bodily injury. How would Martin know that he was being stalked by the neighborhood watch officer? This assumes that 1) Zimmerman would have identified himself as such, 2) Martin would just take his word for that. It’s not like watch officers have ID or wear uniforms. > [@](#): > > You seem to believe that when a local resident says to a stranger, “Who are you, and what are you up to?” the stranger is legally entitled to hit the resident in the face. I don’t think that this is the case. Do you know for a fact that this is what Zimmerman said to Martin? I don’t even think Zimmerman has even made this claim. At any rate, if a 250 lbs stranger came charging towards you, yelling “Who are you, and what are you up to?” in the dark of the night, you can’t convice me you wouldn’t be out of your mind in fear. Like I said before, I find it implausible that Martin would have hit Zimmerman regardless of how he came at him. But if he had, it would fit in more with a fight-or-flight reaction than unprovoked aggression. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/596 "2012-03-19T16:21:52Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Hey I dunno what the crime situation is like in Florida. > > But if I was walking on a public street alone and a guy that could probably pick me up and throw me starts following me and acting suspicious…I’m going to grab either my can of mace or ice pick I have concealed on my person and get ready to use them based on what follows as kidnappings and robbery are common where I am. > > How did Zimmerman not expect such a response? Zimmerman is most likely an idiot. I should say I think if Martin shot and killed Zimmerman he would not be prosecuted. (It’s a true debate as to whether he’d be charged or not.) The no charge thing isn’t apparently all that unique though, as the article I quoted about SYG in Florida mentions lots of police have started passing self defense cases straight on to the prosecutor’s office after the SYG statute was passed. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/597 "2012-03-19T16:48:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I doubt that being confronted by a neighborhood watch officer is enough to put a reasonable person in fear of his life, or of serious bodily injury. You seem to believe that when a local resident says to a stranger, “Who are you, and what are you up to?” the stranger is legally entitled to hit the resident in the face. I don’t think that this is the case. But it _is_ the case that if someone hits me in the face, I’m legally entitled to shoot him dead? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/598 "2012-03-19T17:12:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But while a citizen can make an arrest in Florida, it must be – drum roll – supported by probable cause. In _Ripley v. State_, 898 So. 2d 1078 (Fl Ct App 2005), police officers making an arrest outside their jurisdiction were found to be making a citizen’s arrest, and lacking probable cause, it was reversed. If that is the case, then the militia members should not try to do a citizen’s arrest. But I’m sure they would have good reasons to fear that this individual is a possible threat to other residents. I would suggest that they confront him, chasing him down in the street if necessary, and demand that he explain his actions until they are justified that he is no longer a danger to other young black teenagers. I am sure that Mr. Zimmerman would comply meekly with their demands. If he tried to resist or evade their questioning, they might unfortunately have to shoot him dead in the street, which would be sad, but I guess the good citizens and law enforcement officers of the state of Florida have determined that this is an acceptable way to handle these matters. ---
**Author:** ![Bemused](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/46a35a/32.png) [@Bemused](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bemused)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/599 "2012-03-19T17:19:34Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > To clarify some definitions (as best I understand it): **assault** vs. **battery** : > **assault** does not entail making any kind of physical contact or injury. If you simply confront someone in a threatening way, that is assault. > **battery** occurs when you actually make physical contact, or shoot, or stab, or other injury. By the typical modern interpretation, simple unwelcome touching someone is battery. In popular usage, this is often called “assault”. That would match my understanding of the proper legal definitions. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/600 "2012-03-19T17:26:27Z")
In Ohio, there is no crime of Battery, just Assault. States are different though. Usually A@B are connotated in a tort context. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=31)