# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/681 "2012-03-20T02:29:05Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > 1. Zimmerman said he was walking back to his truck when Martin jumped him from behind How did they end up behind someone’s house if the altercation started in the middle of the street? Is Zimmerman asking us to believe that Martin, unarmed, would chase this much bigger man who is carrying a gun the entire time, back into the wet grass so he could pelt him to death with skittles? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/682 "2012-03-20T02:42:39Z")
He was hopped up on Skittles. He probably thought Zimmerman was a lepruchaun with glandular issues. I don’t know why people keep using Zimmerman’s “Hispanicness” as evidence that he isn’t racist or prejudiced. Some of the most vocal racists I have ever encountered were Cuban Americans from Florida. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/683 "2012-03-20T02:56:09Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > … Has anyone seen a diagram anywhere that shows where the truck was and where the body was found? [This](http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2012/03/15/ac-mattingly-trayvon-martin-shtg-fol.cnn) is as close as I’ve seen, and it puts to rest any questions about Martin ducking down “alleys” and being in people’s “backyards”. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/684 "2012-03-20T02:56:16Z")
> [@OnePercent](#): > > But, WTH, if we are all making wild postulations as to what actually happened that night I guess I will make a go of it myself: > > - Zimmerman called the cops to report a suspicious person (Martin). While on the phone with the cops Martin noticed Zimmerman on the phone and began to walk away (why would he run if he had done nothing wrong, right?) Fear, of course. > [@](#): > > - Zimmerman was afraid that the potential burglar/vandal/whatever would get away so he exited the vehicle and followed on foot (once again, there is no reason to think that he was running). He would have had to run, if we are to believe him when he told 911 that Martin ran away. Either that, or he drove and caught up with him. We do know he bridged the gap somehow. > [@](#): > > - Martin noticed Zimmerman was following him and turned to confront him. An argument ensued and Martin struck Zimmerman in the face (motive: an angry young man upset at being “profiled” by a neighborhood watch captain). Which again assumes a kid would launch an attack on a much bigger man, who is carrying a weapon. Thus, the only way you can make Zimmermans conduct justified is to have the kid behave in a manner that defies normal human behavioral patterns. And not only that, have the kid behave a way that is inconsistent with his previous history, if we are to believe his family, friends, and teachers. But keep going. > [@](#): > > - Zimmerman was not expecting to get punched so he made no effort to block the strike, which knocked him down causing him to bang the back of his head on the ground. This left him with the bloody nose and the injury on the back of his head. Undoubtedly it would have also left him shaken and frightened. This is probably when Zimmerman began to cry for help and “whine” as numerous 911 calls have reported. Did you hear the tapes? That was not whining in the slightest. It was blood curdling screams. Isn’t it a crazy coincidence that Zimmerman–the only armed person in the conflict–would be the one crying in exactly the same fashion as someone you’d expect being held at gunpoint would? It’s like, if I didn’t know any better, I’d think it was him who was about to be shot, instead of the unarmed toothpick giving him the beat down of his life. > [@](#): > > (To my knowledge it is also the official police position that Zimmerman was the one calling for help on those calls). 3 witnesses have since come forward and said it was the boy who was yelling. If I have to choose between believing some cops and believe eye-witnesses, I’m gonna go with the latter. > [@](#): > > - Instead of leaving the scene Martin either continued to attack Zimmerman or stood over him gloating for a moment. In either event Zimmerman would have had reason to fear continued attacks. At this time Zimmerman drew his weapon and fired a single shot upward at Martin. Martin then stumbled backwards before falling. He may have then made some effort to crawl away from Zimmerman so that he actually died some distance away from where the actual fight took place.- None of this squares with what witnesses saw or heard. But thanks for the ridiculousness finish. For a minute there I thought you were actually saying that this could have happened. Good one. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/685 "2012-03-20T02:58:41Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t know why people keep using Zimmerman’s “Hispanicness” as evidence that he isn’t racist or prejudiced. Some of the most vocal racists I have ever encountered were Cuban Americans from Florida. I wasn’t suggesting that he wasn’t racist. I was noting that this doesn’t seem to fit the previously suggested paradigm of cops favoring him because he’s white. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/686 "2012-03-20T03:12:20Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I wasn’t suggesting that he wasn’t racist. I was noting that this doesn’t seem to fit the previously suggested paradigm of cops favoring him because he’s white. Newsflash: They are not mutually exclusive things. Last year some time we had a thread criticizing how Dopers regularly act as though there is no such thing as white Latinos, and I remember so many posters taking offense at the supposedly ridiculous assertion that folks thought that way. And now here we are. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/687 "2012-03-20T03:21:06Z")
It looks like the DOJ is now investigating this. Unless they find something that can prompt the State officials to charge him with a State crime, I don’t really know that they can get Zimmerman for a Federal crime. The Federal civil rights violation requires the government to prove that someone acted intentionally with specific intent to do something the law forbids. There is no negligence/recklessness civil rights violations (whereas many statutes have recklessness type manslaughter crimes.) ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/688 "2012-03-20T03:22:09Z")
It was Zimmerman’s father who first said that his son was Hispanic and therefore not a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/689 "2012-03-20T03:24:05Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > It was Zimmerman’s father who first said that his son was Hispanic and therefore not a racist. It was, and apparently Zimmerman grew up in a “mixed race” household. Blacks and Hispanics are some of the most racist of all Americans though, so that’s not really indicative of anything. Lots of Hispanic people absolutely hate black people and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/690 "2012-03-20T03:29:41Z")
[CBS Article on Federal Investigation](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57400442/fbi-others-investigating-fla-teens-slaying/) An interesting excerpt from a Florida defense attorney: > [@](#): > > Prosecutors can have a hard time making a case if there is no one else around to contradict a person who claims self-defense, said David Hill, a criminal defense attorney in Orlando. So far, Sanford police have said there is no evidence to contradict Zimmerman’s claims. > > “If there is nobody around and you pull a gun, you just say, `Hey, I reasonably believed I was under imminent attack. Hey, sorry. Too bad. But you can’t prosecute me,”’ Hill said, somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Gun control advocates said the case is emblematic of permissive gun laws in Florida, which was among the first states to allow residents to carry concealed weapons. Florida was the first state to pass a “Stand Your Ground” law, which has been dubbed a “Shoot First” law by gun control advocates. I think if that’s really the situation with prosecuting self defense claims in Florida, combined with earlier articles I’ve read in which Florida prosecutors have complained about no longer being able to effectively prosecute some self-defense cases aside from the Martin case (where we have no idea the specific motivations) there is a concern that in Florida police and prosecutors have essentially “given up” on cases where suspects declare self-defense because the law makes them “losers” so to speak. That could be troubling for Florida if criminals become more savvy in crafting their self defense statements to police, as I imagine one way stupid criminals would still get caught up is by saying conflicting or provably false things to police in their statement. I don’t know how true to life it is, but a common trope in fiction is that prosecutors are very conservative because for purposes of promotion and advancement they like to tout their conviction percentage. Taking on cases where conviction is not almost certain hurts that percentage and thus many prosecutors are loathe to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/691 "2012-03-20T03:36:25Z")
you with the face, nice attempt at trying to revive the Chewbaca Defense. “If I can throw a bunch of wild-ass speculation around and shout you down enough, then you must arrest that man for murder.” I can’t believe this thread is 14 pages long when a good :rolleyes: is all the response your posts deserve. Poor little under-utilized :rolleyes:. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/692 "2012-03-20T03:52:08Z")
The Orlando Sentinel appears to have new information. They say that only one shot was fired and not two. [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-19/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-students-20120319\_1\_warning-shot-college-students-single-shell-casing](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-19/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-students-20120319_1_warning-shot-college-students-single-shell-casing) ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/693 "2012-03-20T03:54:30Z")
> [@OnePercent](#): > > - Undoubtedly it would have also left him shaken and frightened. This is probably when Zimmerman began to cry for help and “whine” as numerous 911 calls have reported. (To my knowledge it is also the official police position that Zimmerman was the one calling for help on those calls). I believe Martin’s parents have identified the pleas as his, I hadn’t read the police ID’d them as Zimmerman’s. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/694 "2012-03-20T04:01:14Z")
[quote=“Martin\_Hyde, post:690, topic:615504”] [CBS Article on Federal Investigation](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57400442/fbi-others-investigating-fla-teens-slaying/) An interesting excerpt from a Florida defense attorney: An interesting excerpt from a Florida defense attorney: > [@](#): > > Prosecutors can have a hard time making a case if there is no one else around to contradict a person who claims self-defense, said David Hill, a criminal defense attorney in Orlando. So far, Sanford police have said there is no evidence to contradict Zimmerman’s claims. > > “If there is nobody around and you pull a gun, you just say, `Hey, I reasonably believed I was under imminent attack. Hey, sorry. Too bad. But you can’t prosecute me,”’ Hill said, somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Gun control advocates said the case is emblematic of permissive gun laws in Florida, which was among the first states to allow residents to carry concealed weapons. Florida was the first state to pass a “Stand Your Ground” law, which has been dubbed a “Shoot First” law by gun control advocates. This is a misleading statement The “stand you ground” case law in Washington State predated Florida by many years. Florida’s concealed carry law was actually modeled after Washington state also. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty\_to\_retreat#American\_law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_retreat#American_law) ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/695 "2012-03-20T04:02:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > As per some of the articles from the Orlando Sentinel, I believe early rumblings of the civil case are already starting. Typically a full blown civil case will not start until the criminal case (or in this instance, non-case) is over, so I wouldn’t expect it to be filed until the State’s Attorney is done with Zimmerman (meaning they choose not to prosecute or they go to trial and a verdict is reached.) > > Zimmerman is probably close to judgment proof, I didn’t gather he was meaningfully employed and he’s intermittently taken community college courses throughout his 20s. I’m assuming Martin’s family and their lawyer is going to look for some way to attach the Sanford Police to any case since Zimmerman himself won’t be able to pay any meaningful amount. Hmm…just as a thought - it was a gated community right? And he was the watch captain - could they try to attach the management committee or the community itself in someway (I presume there is some form of corporation set up to manage the community rubbish collection etc etc that probably carries some form of public liability insurance)/ ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/696 "2012-03-20T04:45:15Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Hmm…just as a thought - it was a gated community right? And he was the watch captain - could they try to attach the management committee or the community itself in someway (I presume there is some form of corporation set up to manage the community rubbish collection etc etc that probably carries some form of public liability insurance)/ That certainly seems possible to me, particularly if the homeowners committee knew that Zimmerman carried a gun while on watch. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/697 "2012-03-20T05:57:21Z")
The Feds have released a statement: > **[FBI, Justice Department to Investigate Killing of Trayvon Martin by...](https://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=15955985)** > > George Zimmerman, the self-appointed neighborhood watchman who authorities who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old Florida high school student, last month violated the basic principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual, ABC News has... > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > That certainly seems possible to me, particularly if the homeowners committee knew that Zimmerman carried a gun while on watch. Also mentioned in that link, there is a National Neighborhood Watch Program with 22,000 chapters nation-wide. In their guidelines, members are explicitly forbidden to carry weapons. The Sanford police believed Zimmerman was a member, which he was not. Considering all their dealings with him, I wonder if they knew he was armed. I really think they should release the tapes of the 46 other calls Zimmerman made too. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/698 "2012-03-20T09:30:11Z")
> [@OnePercent](#): > > Nothing like wild speculation to throw fuel on the fire. The simple fact is that everyone posting on this board is basing all of their assumptions on incomplete and circumstantial evidence. There is a legal term for this kind of information: hearsay. I have done a fair amount of research on this case and to my knowledge the police have not released a full accounting of their evidence by any stretch of the imagination. All we have to go on are bits and pieces of the whole story that have leaked out and a whole lot of “anonymous witness” reports that the media has spread around like gossip in a high school with virtually no corroborating evidence from anyone in an official status. Furthermore, we are unlikely to get any official report on the incident until either the case is closed or Zimmerman is officially charged and the case goes in front of a grand jury. Until then every reaction is nothing more than a knee-jerk response to emotional stimuli. > > But, WTH, if we are all making wild postulations as to what actually happened that night I guess I will make a go of it myself: > > - Zimmerman called the cops to report a suspicious person (Martin). While on the phone with the cops Martin noticed Zimmerman on the phone and began to walk away (why would he run if he had done nothing wrong, right?) > > - Zimmerman was afraid that the potential burglar/vandal/whatever would get away so he exited the vehicle and followed on foot (once again, there is no reason to think that he was running). > > - Martin noticed Zimmerman was following him and turned to confront him. An argument ensued and Martin struck Zimmerman in the face (motive: an angry young man upset at being “profiled” by a neighborhood watch captain). > > - Zimmerman was not expecting to get punched so he made no effort to block the strike, which knocked him down causing him to bang the back of his head on the ground. This left him with the bloody nose and the injury on the back of his head. Undoubtedly it would have also left him shaken and frightened. This is probably when Zimmerman began to cry for help and “whine” as numerous 911 calls have reported. (To my knowledge it is also the official police position that Zimmerman was the one calling for help on those calls). > > - Instead of leaving the scene Martin either continued to attack Zimmerman or stood over him gloating for a moment. In either event Zimmerman would have had reason to fear continued attacks. At this time Zimmerman drew his weapon and fired a single shot upward at Martin. Martin then stumbled backwards before falling. He may have then made some effort to crawl away from Zimmerman so that he actually died some distance away from where the actual fight took place. > > Now, once again, I have no evidence that it actually happened like this, but considering that the police have thus far declined to press charges on Zimmerman I think it is very likely that the final report of what occurred that night will end up looking a lot like this. You, at least, acknowledge that you’re about to embark on wild postulations before doing so. The only thing that I am postulating is: we don’t know. We don’t have the evidence that the police have. Until we have that, it’s speculation to construct any specific scenario. I am saying this because I feel the impression I’m leaving is support for Zimmerman. I don’t have any sympathy for Zimmerman, who I believe acted very poorly by the uncontradicted evidence we have. But “poorly” =/= “criminally.” And we do not have uncontradicted evidence of criminal acts. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/699 "2012-03-20T10:16:32Z")
> **[Trayvon Martin's Last Phone Call Triggers Demand for Arrest 'Right Now'](https://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017)** > > A cell phone phone call from slain black teenager Trayvon Martin to his girlfriend seconds before he was fatally shot by self-appointed neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman "blows Zimmerman's absurd self-defense claim out of the water," and... Martin on the phone before his death. Girl told him to run. Martin said I’m not running; I’ll walk fast. Eventually does run and stops when he thinks he lost Zimmerman. Fight ensues. Girl thinks Zimmerman started it. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/700 "2012-03-20T10:48:34Z")
For a shooting that supposedly lacks so much evidence to go by, there certainly doesn’t seem to be a shortage of telephone recordings tracking the last moments of this boy’s life. This is really amazing to me. Law and Order shit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=36)