# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/721 "2012-03-20T15:48:24Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Quick question: if it becomes clear that Zimmerman actively chased Martin, what are the legal implications? Is running after someone (who has not assaulted you or done anything else wrong or threatening) in itself an act of aggression that could void self-defence claims? > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t see why it wouldn’t. Wouldn’t that definitely be assault? I don’t think self-defense can hold up if you’re committing a crime against someone, but I’m not a lawyer. No. Running after someone is not assault. Running after someone yelling, “I’m gonna kick your ass!” is probably assault. Running after someone yelling, “I wanna talk to you for a sec!” is almost certainly not. Running after someone else, without more information, does not qualify as assault, or else everyone in the Boston Marathon except the guy in front would be guilty of assault. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/722 "2012-03-20T15:50:19Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > At this point I’m assuming the offenderati and recreational outragers really have nothing left to complain about, unless you want to keep insisting that “this all should have happened faster.” Really? Having concerns about the circumstances in which an unarmed 17 year old boy is shot and killed just screams “recreational outrage” and “offenderati” to you? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/723 "2012-03-20T15:51:01Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > [http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/19/2702685\_p2/floridas-controversial-self-defense.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/19/2702685_p2/floridas-controversial-self-defense.html) > > Two interesting things in this story that I haven’t read elsewhere, both from chief Lee regarding Zimmermans statement to the police: > > 1. Zimmerman told the cops he only left his truck to check the sign to see what street he was on, and > > 2. Zimmerman said he was walking back to his truck when Martin jumped him from behind > > 1 is obviously a lie as Zimmerman had been patroling around the small complex for over a year…constantly. > > 2 sounds like like complete bullshit and I don’t know why he would have much credibility since he lied about what he was doing in the first place. He told the dispatcher he was following Martin. > > Has anyone seen a diagram anywhere that shows where the truck was and where the body was found? So this is his story to the police, the story that the police found credible and used when they told the press that they believe Zimmerman acted in self-defense? I’m sure that police department is totally impartial and doing the best investigative job they can. Too bad they never tried to find out if the dead teenager made phone calls right before he died, and interrogate the person he was talking to on the phone. If this Florida situation is a case where people try to assert that there is not enough evidence to overcome the standard of self-defense, I can’t imagine what would be enough evidence when no witnesses are around. After reading about this case, and the other case mentioned in a previous post where a man in Texas tells the 911 dispatcher “I’m going out to shoot those people”, shooting them in the back, and then claiming self-defense and getting away with it, it seems pretty clear that these “stand your ground” laws are an open license to kill people without sufficient cause and easily get away with it. I find it really hard to believe that anyone would continue to support these laws. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/724 "2012-03-20T15:53:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Looks like the State’s Attorney is going to call a grand jury. > > At this point I’m assuming the offenderati and recreational outragers really have nothing left to complain about, unless you want to keep insisting that “this all should have happened faster.” I’m so sorry I get upset about teenagers getting shot down in the street. Of course I should have just read the article and then gone back to watching Desperate Housewives or American Idol! Silly me. I can’t help but wonder, though, if the public outcry fro all those idiotic offenderati and recreational outrages might not have had some influence on the State’s Attorney decision to call a grand jury. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/725 "2012-03-20T15:57:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t see why it would. Zimmerman was doing nothing illegal by questioning Martin (if that is what he did). Martin was doing nothing illegal by running away, either (if that is what he did). But as long as Zimmerman did not attempt to physically prevent Martin from running, I doubt this could be considered assault just by following Martin and attempting to continue the interview. This is…so ridiculous. No need to even directly respond to it. I’m mainly just bumping this to show the lengths some posters are going to simply to justify this maniac’s behavior. Big black man chasing _anyone_ down in the dark of the night would be subject to target practice in gun country, and few people would even question it. But let it be Zimmerman, and it suddenly becomes a case of a concerned citizen trying to his level best to continue an “interview”. Sweet mother of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/726 "2012-03-20T16:01:13Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Looks like the State’s Attorney is going to call a grand jury. > > At this point I’m assuming the offenderati and recreational outragers really have nothing left to complain about, unless you want to keep insisting that “this all should have happened faster.” So what happens in a grand jury is that the prosecution, but not the defense, gets to present the case to the grand jury, which must find probable cause to hand down in indictment. Note the this is actually an easier standard at times than the police, who are obliged to consider the totality of circumstances. The prosecution is not required to present exculpatory evidence (evidence that helps the defense) to the grand jury. If the grand jury fails to indict, I wonder what the **monstro** s and **you with the face** s of the world will then say? ---
**Author:** ![Hakuna\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hakuna\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hakuna_Matata)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/727 "2012-03-20T16:02:09Z")
Legally running after someone may not be assault. But I am 99.99% certain that both Shodan and Bricker would not feel the same way if I started talking to their wife or daughter on the street and then followed them and when they started running I chased them. Personally I would consider that assault if someone did that to my wife, my daughter or my son (if I had a son). Can you both honestly tell me that if I chased your wife/daughter down the street that you wouldn’t consider that assault? Interesting, almost a Dukakis moment here isn’t it! Emotionally being chased by someone who you don’t know, whether they are yelling or not would create that anxiety. Not sure why yelling "I am going to kick your ass’ adds any more anxiety to the situation or changes it to assault. The physical act of chasing me implies danger which implies assault. At least to me, but that is why we have lawyers to split those hairs. Now if I am being accused of assault I would want a lawyer who would split those hairs so overall that is a good thing. Interesting discusson on this subject though. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/728 "2012-03-20T16:02:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Running after someone is not assault. > > Running after someone yelling, “I’m gonna kick your ass!” is probably assault. Running after someone yelling, “I wanna talk to you for a sec!” is almost certainly not. What about running after someone yelling, “You’re not getting away this time, asshole!” Assault not assault, the guy was running after a boy for unjustified reasons. I’m sorry, but if he was being chased, Martin was well within his rights to bloody his nose, and there is not legalese in the world to convince me otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/729 "2012-03-20T16:03:18Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > I’m so sorry I get upset about teenagers getting shot down in the street. Of course I should have just read the article and then gone back to watching Desperate Housewives or American Idol! Silly me. > I can’t help but wonder, though, if the public outcry fro all those idiotic offenderati and recreational outrages might not have had some influence on the State’s Attorney decision to call a grand jury. What I should mention is that at no point **ever** did the State of Florida say Zimmerman would never be charged. You guys were upset the investigation wasn’t operating in the manner in which you thought it should have operated. To me, I have far greater concerns about the implications for American justice when a bunch of angry blacks can possibly change how a criminal investigation gets handled than I do about some nobody teenager getting shot. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/730 "2012-03-20T16:04:52Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Really? Having concerns about the circumstances in which an unarmed 17 year old boy is shot and killed just screams “recreational outrage” and “offenderati” to you? Ok, how about if the kid had been 21, packing a gun, a gang-banger, and with a violent felony record? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/731 "2012-03-20T16:05:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If the grand jury fails to indict, I wonder what the **monstro** s and **you with the face** s of the world will then say? Why do you care so much? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/732 "2012-03-20T16:06:17Z")
So all this “he’s acting strange, he must be on drugs” stuff was the brilliant observation of a teen using a magically invisible phone? The mind boggles. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/733 "2012-03-20T16:08:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ok, how about if the kid had been 21, packing a gun, a gang-banger, and with a violent felony record? So you’re asking me if the situations would be the same if instead they were entirely different? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/734 "2012-03-20T16:08:51Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > What I should mention is that at no point **ever** did the State of Florida say Zimmerman would never be charged. You guys were upset the investigation wasn’t operating in the manner in which you thought it should have operated. > > To me, I have far greater concerns about the implications for American justice when a bunch of angry blacks can possibly change how a criminal investigation gets handled than I do about some nobody teenager getting shot. I didn’t fully make my point, but I **do** think the public reaction has impacted how this case has been handled. That’s true of course in **all criminal cases** in which there is a serious public reaction (from Leopold & Loeb to O.J. to Duke Lacrosse to this.) That’s why to some degree I wish our system was more akin to Canada’s at least in how their prosecutors and (a bit of a non-sequitur) their judges are chosen. My impression of this case is there are two possibilities: 1. Sanford police **and** State’s Attorneys did not push the issue because of racism or pro-Zimmerman bias. I say **and** the State’s Attorney because subsequent news has shown the prosecutors were involved very early on in advising the police to arrest or not. 2. The prosecutors and police in this case behaved in the same way they did for many other self-defense cases in Florida in which there was no eye witness–they decided not to prosecute. Not because it was right, but because prosecutors have an innate aversion to risk and the risk of losing a case. Call it “cowardice” or simple expediency, but this case is not without precedent in that regard. I think it’s _possible_ it’s number one, but number one requires me to **presume** bad acts, and I won’t do that without evidence. So I presume it’s probably the second scenario that actually played out. The public outcry basically has forced the SA to put their balls on the line so to speak. I’ve spent time in Florida, blacks are very heavily involved in government down there both as police officers and government officials. So if racism was really the motive I’d be shocked nothing has been leaked. Is Sanford an all white police force? No black attorneys in the SA office? That’s not the standard in Florida that I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/735 "2012-03-20T16:12:30Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > It certainly does get chilly enough down here to use a hoodie, there’s nothing weird about him wearing one. My interpretation of the act of putting the hood on was to indicate that he’s not doing anything to provoke the other person, just an indication that your eyes are forward and you’re not looking for trouble. What are you talking about? I live about 20 miles from Sanford. I checked and it never dropped below 60 that night in Sanford. I wouldn’t even put on a long sleeve shirt for that. I don’t even own a hat that covers my ears. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/736 "2012-03-20T16:13:09Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Big black man chasing _anyone_ down in the dark of the night would be subject to target practice in gun country, and few people would even question it. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/737 "2012-03-20T16:13:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Running after someone is not assault. Oh, come on, now… put yourself in Martin’s situation - late, nobody around, off-road and all-in-all a non-public place - and someone gets out of the car and goes after you as you are the only person around. There is no other conclusion but intentional assault. Your analogy with marathon is totally inappropriate as it ignores the whole situation. Actually, I can’t believe it how you - as I understand, a lawyer - can even come up with an analogy like that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/738 "2012-03-20T16:14:20Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > So you’re asking me if the situations would be the same if instead they were entirely different? 😕 Yes, what if the kid had been 21, packing a gun, a gang-banger, and with a violent felony record? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/739 "2012-03-20T16:15:09Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What about running after someone yelling, “You’re not getting away this time, asshole!” What about the fact that it has not been established that Zimmerman chased Martin yelling “You’re not getting away this time, asshole!” > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, but if he was being chased, Martin was well within his rights to bloody his nose, and there is not legalese in the world to convince me otherwise. I think by this time most of us are aware that you are genuinely unconcerned with facts or law. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/740 "2012-03-20T16:15:58Z")
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