# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![OnePercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6f9a4e/32.png) [@OnePercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OnePercent)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/861 "2012-03-20T19:49:13Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Having a jogger behind you isn’t really the same thing as being chased. If you had reason to believe (even erroneously) that the jogger _was_ chasing you (say by taking an unusual, zig-zagging path that the jogger then also took) and you struck the jogger with non-deadly force, you’d be able to use self-defense. Moreover, the belief need only be reasonable, not necessarily correct. > > Likewise with the wallet return scenario. If someone chased after you to return your mislaid wallet, without letting you know that what they were up to, and you used non-deadly force to repel them, you would again be able to avail yourself of self-defense. And I suppose you have some proof that such an outlandish defense has ever been successfully employed? I can picture it now: Officer: “Why did you strike the jogger sir?” Suspect: “Because he was chasing me.” Officer: “How did you know he was chasing you?” Suspect: “Because he was running at me” Officer: “Did he say anything to you, did he threaten you in any way?” Suspect: “No” Officer: “You have the right to remain silent…” Moreover, you are proving my point when your say that there is a difference between someone running at you (i.e. a jogger) and being chased. You are right, being chased implies some compounding information that adds to the simple act of running at someone that _may_ constitute an assault, thought it would have to be pretty specific. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/862 "2012-03-20T19:51:23Z")
> [@OnePercent](#): > > So you admit outright that you don’t know what happened, you are basing all of your assumptions on the information that is available to you through the media, much of which has never been officially confirmed. For all you know the police have an eyewitness that has completely verified Zimmerman’s version of events. They have no obligation to release that information and they may be deliberately withholding it strategically as not to taint the investigation. In other words, you should refrain from making rash judgements when you do not have the totality of the evidence in front of you. And if they release additional information, I might have to change my opinion. I won’t feel bad about having formed an opinion based on incomplete evidence. ---
**Author:** ![OnePercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6f9a4e/32.png) [@OnePercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OnePercent)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/863 "2012-03-20T19:52:16Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > So you admit outright that your argument amounts to: “Who knows? Maybe there’s something out there that shows I’m right!” Are you claiming to have full knowledge of the information police have about this case? Obviously, since they have declined to arrest him on this incident so far they must have some kind of corroborating evidence that supports Zimmerman’s side of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/864 "2012-03-20T19:52:52Z")
Listen to this video at 2:20. I won’t bias you as to what’s there if you don’t already know, but you might want to turn your sound up. > **[trayvon martin 911 call - Yahoo Video Search Results](https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=trayvon%2Bmartin%2B911%2Bcall)** > > The search engine that helps you find exactly what you're looking for. Find the most relevant information, video, images, and answers from all across the Web. ---
**Author:** ![Hakuna\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hakuna\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hakuna_Matata)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/865 "2012-03-20T19:53:32Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > In addition, I am arguing that is this is how the law is correctly interpreted, then it is a bad law. Oh we are in agreement there–I think it is a terrible law. I can’t imagine if I was walking down the street and someone was chasing me that isn’t considered assault. And I turn and defend myself now I am the aggessor! But it does sound like that is the law there in Florida, and this case if nothing else will help focus and change that law is my hope. Frankly I hope that (and I trust eventually this will happen) that Zimmerman gets his due. I think it will happen either legally or via the street but I think the case has incited too many emotions for him to get away free. And with that, I think I will bow out of this thread. Interesting discussion though. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/866 "2012-03-20T19:59:39Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > So you admit outright that your argument amounts to: “Who knows? Maybe there’s something out there that shows I’m right!” Of course, the difference is that that’s how criminal burden of proof works, inconveniently enough for the prosecution. The defense can say, in effect, maybe something else happened. The prosecution has to say, “My evidence shows that the only conceivable, reasonable scenario is guilt.” So if you and he are both making possible scenarios up, he carries the day and you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/867 "2012-03-20T20:06:35Z")
> [@OnePercent](#): > > And I suppose you have some proof that such an outlandish defense has ever been successfully employed? I can picture it now: > > Officer: “Why did you strike the jogger sir?” > Suspect: “Because he was chasing me.” > Officer: “How did you know he was chasing you?” > Suspect: “Because he was running at me” > Officer: “Did he say anything to you, did he threaten you in any way?” > Suspect: “No” > Officer: “You have the right to remain silent…” > > Moreover, you are proving my point when your say that there is a difference between someone running at you (i.e. a jogger) and being chased. You are right, being chased implies some compounding information that adds to the simple act of running at someone that _may_ constitute an assault, thought it would have to be pretty specific. Yeah, I can invent dialogue too. Since you and **Bricker** are so convinced that _as a matter of law_ being chased without more _necessarily_ fails to authorize self-defense, I’d be gratified if you could direct me to a court that agrees with the two of you. ---
**Author:** ![OnePercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6f9a4e/32.png) [@OnePercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OnePercent)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/868 "2012-03-20T20:09:27Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > It is my understanding that your statement is inaccurate. In the case you cite, the woman was in her home and someone kicked down the door, holding a weapon. You already had the right (Castle doctrine, IIRC) to defned yourself in your own home. > > The “Stand Your Ground” expression is usually used for laws that cover a different situation. A SYG law adds the fact that you do not have a “duty to retreat” when out in public (i.e. not in your home): you can shoot to kill when in the street without having to try to avoid the confrontation. “Castle Doctrine” and “Stand Your Ground” are basically the same law and they are both concerned with the aforementioned “Duty-To-Retreat”: > **[Castle doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#Duty-to-retreat)** > > A castle doctrine, also known as a castle law or a defense of habitation law, is a legal doctrine that designates a person's abode or any legally occupied place (for example, an automobile or a home) as a place in which that person has protections and immunities permitting one, in certain circumstances, to use force (up to and including deadly force) to defend oneself against an intruder, free from legal prosecution for the consequences of the force used. The term is most commonly used in the De... Some states make a differentiation between being inside the home and some do not. Florida does not, neither does Oklahoma. The logic being that it is difficult to always define what constitutes a protected domicile and it is also problematic to say that people can defend themselves at home but not in their car or in the parking lot on their way to the gym for example. ---
**Author:** ![OnePercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6f9a4e/32.png) [@OnePercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OnePercent)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/869 "2012-03-20T20:14:05Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > I won’t feel bad about having formed an opinion based on incomplete evidence. Would you feel bad if someone was lynched based on incomplete evidence? I am not saying that you don’t have a right to an opinion. I am just saying that is dangerous to assume that a person is guilty of a crime until you have all the evidence. I mean, didn’t some militia group announce they were going to hunt Zimmerman down and attempt a “citzen’s arrest” on him? You don’t have a problem with that I suppose? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/870 "2012-03-20T20:14:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course, the difference is that that’s how criminal burden of proof works, inconveniently enough for the prosecution. The defense can say, in effect, maybe something else happened. The prosecution has to say, “My evidence shows that the only conceivable, reasonable scenario is guilt.” > > So if you and he are both making possible scenarios up, he carries the day and you don’t. Yes, the defense need only show that the credited evidence is not inconsistent with with innocence or justification. However, the defense cannot create reasonable doubt by saying “Maybe there’s some evidence we don’t have would show something different” (which is what **OnePercent** is saying when he told **ArnoldWinklereid** , “Well, maybe the police have secret evidence that shows that I am right”). ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/871 "2012-03-20T20:15:51Z")
Wait are you guys arguing that Zimmerman is potentially protected by SYG or Martin, because it seems to me that Martin is the one who has the SYG standing. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/872 "2012-03-20T20:15:54Z")
> [@OnePercent](#): > > Are you claiming to have full knowledge of the information police have about this case? Sure, bro, and maybe the Queen has balls and she’s actually the King! I mean, anything’s possible, right?!? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/873 "2012-03-20T20:22:32Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Sure, bro, and maybe the Queen has balls and she’s actually the King! I mean, anything’s possible, right?!? Anybody else getting a hankering for ham and eggs? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/874 "2012-03-20T20:22:57Z")
> [@OnePercent](#): > > Officer: “Why did you strike the jogger sir?” > Suspect: “Because he was chasing me.” > Officer: “How did you know he was chasing you?” > Suspect: “Because he was running at me” > Officer: “Did he say anything to you, did he threaten you in any way?” > Suspect: “No” > Officer: “You have the right to remain silent…” A lesson learned. The suspect should have just shot the jogger and the officer would have sent him on his way. Oh wait … was the jogger white? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/875 "2012-03-20T20:26:14Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Wait are you guys arguing that Zimmerman is potentially protected by SYG or Martin, because it seems to me that Martin is the one who has the SYG standing. I brought that up earlier, but he didn’t have any rights. He was wearing a hoodie. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/876 "2012-03-20T20:30:39Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Listen to this video at 2:20. I won’t bias you as to what’s there if you don’t already know, but you might want to turn your sound up. > > [trayvon martin 911 call - Yahoo Video Search Results](http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=trayvon+martin+911+call) Which video are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lady_of_the_Lake)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/877 "2012-03-20T20:32:07Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Pulling up a hoodie, when somebody looks at you. What do you thinking that is going to accomplish? Do you think it makes you invisible? Also keep in mind that Martin didn’t know that Zimmerman wasn’t a plainclothes cop or private security. If Martin thought Zimmerman was a mugger or something, then **he** should have been calling 911 or at least his father. What good does calling his girlfriend do? > > BTW, you really should re-think your behavior. Acting like that is just sending out fear signals to potential predators. Actually that may be consistent. From a criminal’s point of view, police officers are their predators. I can only conjecture, and I’m only trying to look at this from Martin’s point of view. However, a teen might think something along the lines of: ‘There is this weird guy following me, I’ll just pull up my hoodie, there, now I’m not looking at him so I can’t be pissing him off, I’m not drawing attention to myself and I’ll just get out of here.’ I don’t know why you are trying to push all this blame on Martin (the victim) this way. You seem to be pushing that he pulled up his hoodie/that he didn’t call the cops or his father as proof of…what exactly? Is this akin to: ‘she wouldn’t have gotten raped if she hadn’t gotten drunk/worn that short skirt’, because your argument sounds \*really \*similar… Also…_really_? I said I used to hide like that when I was a teenage. I also said I can ‘put myself in his shoes’ i.e. try to understand his motivation. I didn’t say I acted like that now, as an adult… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/878 "2012-03-20T20:34:49Z")
Even the [guys](http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/03/stand-your-ground-fathers-trayvon-martins-shooter-should-likely-be-arrested-doesnt-deserve-immunity.html) behind Florida’s SYG law think Zimmerman’s self-defense claim is suspect. ---
**Author:** ![OnePercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6f9a4e/32.png) [@OnePercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OnePercent)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/879 "2012-03-20T20:38:44Z")
> [@Hakuna\_Matata](#): > > Frankly I hope that (and I trust eventually this will happen) that Zimmerman gets his due. I think it will happen either legally or via the street but I think the case has incited too many emotions for him to get away free. Yikes! So you hope that he gets murdered? I guess you are not a big believer in the whole “innocent until proven guilty” standard we have in this country. This kind of mentality exhibits exactly what is wrong with making assumptions of guilt based on incomplete and potentially inaccurate information. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/880 "2012-03-20T20:39:05Z")
> [@Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](#): > > I don’t know why you are trying to push all this blame on Martin (the victim) this way. You don’t? Because it’s pretty damn clear to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=45)