# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/901 "2012-03-20T21:22:41Z")
> [@OnePercent](#): > > Would you feel bad if someone was lynched based on incomplete evidence? Yes I would. > [@](#): > > I mean, didn’t some militia group announce they were going to hunt Zimmerman down and attempt a “citzen’s arrest” on him? You don’t have a problem with that I suppose? Yes I would have a problem with that, if you would know if you read the previous pages in the thread. What I suggested that the militia members could legally do is take a gun, go down in the street, and follow Zimmerman around, if they are concerned that he could be a threat to other people. They could stop him for questioning and ask him if he is up to no good. If he pushes them or tries to fight them, and they are in fear of danger to their persons, then by Florida law they are legally allowed to shoot him. I assume that _you_ would have no problem with that solution? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/902 "2012-03-20T21:23:39Z")
> [@Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](#): > > Also…_really_? I said I used to hide like that when I was a teenage. I also said I can ‘put myself in his shoes’ i.e. try to understand his motivation. I didn’t say I acted like that now, as an adult… :rolleyes: If you want to claim that you were as dumb as an Ostrich when you were a teenager, I can’t disprove that. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/903 "2012-03-20T21:23:57Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > [Try this one.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL72w4xiTVU&feature=youtu.be) > > Yeah, I heard it. [The Orlando Sentinel](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-20/news/os-trayvon-martin-call-zimmerman-slur-20120320_1_racial-slur-fatal-shooting-racial-epithet) leans towards him saying “fucking punks.” This just ties in with the dangers of mob justices and jumping to conclusions. Also with the fact people here are desperately trying to find racism. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/904 "2012-03-20T21:25:33Z")
> [@Invisible\_Chimp](#): > > Even the [guys](http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/03/stand-your-ground-fathers-trayvon-martins-shooter-should-likely-be-arrested-doesnt-deserve-immunity.html) behind Florida’s SYG law think Zimmerman’s self-defense claim is suspect. From the article: > [@](#): > > Former state Sen. Durell Peaden and current state Rep. Dennis Baxley say the law they passed in 2005 was designed to protect citizens by giving them the right to “meet force with force.” > > Both men say they don’t know all the facts of Trayvon’s case. But, they say they believe the law would not allow a person like George Zimmerman to pursue and confront a person like Trayvon and then use deadly force. Zimmerman has not been charged. > > “They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid,” said Peaden, a Crestview Republican who sponsored the deadly force law in 2005. “He has no protection under my law.” I guess I’m not the only one daring enough to express an opinion based on what I know of the case so far! ---
**Author:** ![OnePercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6f9a4e/32.png) [@OnePercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OnePercent)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/905 "2012-03-20T21:27:59Z")
Back to my earlier point about the police having evidence that they may not have released to the public yet, this entire incident reminds me of the Joe Horn shooting in 2007. In that case the media ran with the bits and pieces of information that were available to them and the shooter was generally considered to be guilty in the court of public opinion. This resulted in death threats against the shooter and a massive escalation in tensions around the community. When the case went in front of the grand jury it then became known to the public that the police had a report from a plain-clothes police officer who arrived on the scene and who witnessed the incident. [http://www.chron.com/neighborhood/pasadena-news/article/Joe-Horn-cleared-by-grand-jury-in-Pasadena-1587004.php](http://www.chron.com/neighborhood/pasadena-news/article/Joe-Horn-cleared-by-grand-jury-in-Pasadena-1587004.php) Point being, no one should assume that we know all the details here. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/906 "2012-03-20T21:30:42Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Because the injustice you are complaining about is that law enforcement and the State’s Attorney are being deliberative in making a decision. The “injustice” you are complaining about is that you think justice **must be swift** , that is essentially you seeking to deny Zimmerman his constitutional rights. No, not at all. I think you must not have my posts very carefully. The thing that brought me into this thread in the first place was that people were arguing “I can see why the police would not want to charge Zimmerman, there’s no way to prove that he wasn’t acting in self-defense.” I thought, based on what I knew of the case, that this was not accurate, and that, if it _was_ accurate, then the Stand Your Ground laws were even worse than I initially supposed. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/907 "2012-03-20T21:38:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Like I said, I can at least understand some level of outrage if someone meaningful had been shot and killed. But just a regular joe? I don’t think you understand that the fact that Travyon Martin died vs. some other teenager is _not_ what has brought most people to this thread, I am sure the majority of the people talking about this case don’t know Trayvon Martin personally. I know I’m discussing it because it relates to laws passed in the US, laws with which I disagree. Maybe that gets on your nerves, but I think it’s a good thing for people to get interested in matters of public policy and legal issues. Learning about what is and isn’t allowed in the case of “Stand Your Ground” laws can only benefit us. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/908 "2012-03-20T21:41:33Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You have no evidence it was a foot chase. The cell phone call the girl reported even states Martin wasn’t running. Doesn’t sound like a foot chase to me. [Zimmerman from the 911 tape: Shit he’s running.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL72w4xiTVU#t=2m06s) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![OnePercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6f9a4e/32.png) [@OnePercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OnePercent)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/909 "2012-03-20T21:41:52Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > What I suggested that the militia members could legally do is take a gun, go down in the street, and follow Zimmerman around, if they are concerned that he could be a threat to other people. They could stop him for questioning and ask him if he is up to no good. If he pushes them or tries to fight them, and they are in fear of danger to their persons, then by Florida law they are legally allowed to shoot him. I assume that _you_ would have no problem with that solution? I would agree with that if a single member of the militia group confronted him, provided that person made no attempt to physically impede or physically harass Zimmerman. However, to think that a group of men has the same legal protection to self-defense against a single individual that one man has against another is a grossly incorrect understanding of self-defense law. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/910 "2012-03-20T21:42:23Z")
> [@OnePercent](#): > > Back to my earlier point about the police having evidence that they may not have released to the public yet, this entire incident reminds me of the Joe Horn shooting in 2007. In that case the media ran with the bits and pieces of information that were available to them and the shooter was generally considered to be guilty in the court of public opinion. This resulted in death threats against the shooter and a massive escalation in tensions around the community. When the case went in front of the grand jury it then became known to the public that the police had a report from a plain-clothes police officer who arrived on the scene and who witnessed the incident. > > [http://www.chron.com/neighborhood/pasadena-news/article/Joe-Horn-cleared-by-grand-jury-in-Pasadena-1587004.php](http://www.chron.com/neighborhood/pasadena-news/article/Joe-Horn-cleared-by-grand-jury-in-Pasadena-1587004.php) > > Point being, no one should assume that we know all the details here. And I still think that his shooting of the two people is not justified. From your article: > [@](#): > > Pasadena police have said a detective in plainclothes had parked in front of Horn’s house in response to the 911 call, and saw the two men before they crossed into Horn’s front yard. > Police believe that neither Horn nor the burglars knew an officer was present. > > When Horn confronted the men in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, police have said. However, the men ignored his order to freeze. > > Authorities have said one man ran toward Horn but had angled away toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb. Shooting someone in the back when he is running away from you? Is that what these laws are supposed to enable you to do? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/911 "2012-03-20T21:44:40Z")
> [@OnePercent](#): > > I would agree with that if a single member of the militia group confronted him, provided that person made no attempt to physically impede or harass Zimmerman. However, to think that a group of men has the same legal protection to self-defense against a single individual that one man has against another is a grossly incorrect understanding of self-defense law. Yes, and in this post I wasn’t careful enough saying it, but in my previous posts I was clearly saying that it should be only one person at a time. In any case, does it really matter if there is more than one person? As long as they don’t make physical contact with him and don’t impede his progress, I’m sure that they are not breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/912 "2012-03-20T21:47:44Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Yowza, what an obedient soul you are! > > Free citizens on public ways owe no duty to follow the orders of random strangers on the outside chance that those commanding them are plainsclothes police or “private security” (_i.e._, just some guy who’s getting paid). Even the duly consistuted police couldn’t stop Martin without reasonable, articulable suspicion (a Terry stop), and then only briefly and for the limited purpose of either confirming or dispelling the suspicion. I didn’t say Martin’s behavior wasn’t legal. I was saying that it was stupid. Actually after reviewing the incident, I don’t see any behavior on either side that shows anything resembling common sense. The people that stayed inside and called 911 were showing common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/913 "2012-03-20T21:51:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, it’s not. To obtain a conviction, you must supply proof beyond a reasonable doubt. That means that your evidence must exclude all other reasonable possibilities, and support only guilt. Because the shooter can supply a story that’s reasonable, and not clearly contradicted by the evidence, it’s not worth going to trial. I think the “reasonable” story offered by Zimmerman is contradicted by the evidence. First of all by his own words; the shooter tells the 911 dispatcher he is going to follow the teenager, and then after the fact says that he didn’t intend on following the teenager, the reverse happened, the teenager pursued and attacked _him_ ?!? Secondly it is contradicted by the evidence of the person on the phone with Trayvon, saying that Zimmerman was chasing Zimmerman and not the other way around. Zimmerman, to me, is clearly lying. Obviously we disagree, but I think you’re wrong. The shooter’s story is not reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/914 "2012-03-20T21:51:54Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > If you want to claim that you were as dumb as an Ostrich when you were a teenager, I can’t disprove that. This is borderline insultive, **JoelUpchurch**. Let’s dial back these kind of comments to other posters in this forum. Not a warning. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/915 "2012-03-20T21:55:16Z")
Zimmerman said it was raining. Not that I think we need to justify Martin wearing a hoodie. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/916 "2012-03-20T21:55:16Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Like I said, I can at least understand some level of outrage if someone meaningful had been shot and killed. But just a regular joe? How about people settle down and let the government actually do its job. I don’t know why people think it is appropriate to try and affect the process of criminal justice through mob intimidation tactics. Ernesto Arturo Miranda was just an ordinary person. A pretty awful person as these things go. But he had an injustice against him and some lawyers from the ACLU decided that this “nobody” should be represented and, long story short, we now have a pre-written paragraph that can be inserted into any cop show. Rosa Parks, despite urban legends to the contrary, was pretty active in the Civil Rights movements. But, still, in the grand scheme of things, she was pretty much a nobody. Until she suffered an injustice and the offenderati who jump to conclusions before all the facts have come in said “these laws are bullshit” and made a move to change them. Why though? She was just a nobody! And what’s the deal with that slut Sarah Fluke? Why the hell are we so upset that this nobody is getting ragged on? God people. I could understand if it was, like, Sarah Jessica Parker. She doesn’t have a star on the Walk of Fame but I’d still consider her a somebody and thus worthy of my attention. Or perhaps, it’s the nobodies we should be most outraged about when an injustice befalls them. Because without our outrage, without our pressure to compel action, those nobodies remain nobodies, laws never change, and justice never gets done. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/917 "2012-03-20T21:56:40Z")
> [@OnePercent](#): > > Point being, no one should assume that we know all the details here. But but but a black guywas killed! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/918 "2012-03-20T22:05:20Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > [Zimmerman from the 911 tape: Shit he’s running.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL72w4xiTVU#t=2m06s) > > CMC fnord! And yet Trayvon’s girlfriend says he told her he wasn’t going to run. So which tape do we trust? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/919 "2012-03-20T22:08:00Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > But but but a black guywas killed! Stunningly insightful commentary as usual. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/920 "2012-03-20T22:09:31Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Ernesto Arturo Miranda was just an ordinary person. A pretty awful person as these things go. But he had an injustice against him and some lawyers from the ACLU decided that this “nobody” should be represented and, long story short, we now have a pre-written paragraph that can be inserted into any cop show. > > Rosa Parks, despite urban legends to the contrary, was pretty active in the Civil Rights movements. But, still, in the grand scheme of things, she was pretty much a nobody. Until she suffered an injustice and the offenderati who jump to conclusions before all the facts have come in said “these laws are bullshit” and made a move to change them. Why though? She was just a nobody! > > And what’s the deal with that slut Sarah Fluke? Why the hell are we so upset that this nobody is getting ragged on? God people. I could understand if it was, like, Sarah Jessica Parker. She doesn’t have a star on the Walk of Fame but I’d still consider her a somebody and thus worthy of my attention. > > Or perhaps, it’s the nobodies we should be most outraged about when an injustice befalls them. Because without our outrage, without our pressure to compel action, those nobodies remain nobodies, laws never change, and justice never gets done. The difference between Miranda and Rosa Parks and Zimmerman is Miranda and Rosa Parks were treated to injustice by the state, and their actions in part lead to reform and improvement in civil liberties. You guys are arguing for the State to **do something** to Zimmerman, that is what you are advocating. You aren’t advocating for freedom at all, but rather for the State to conduct criminal justice on a _specific criminal_ in the manner you insist. If you think that is similar to what happened during the Civil Rights movement or to the effects of the Miranda decision or to Rosa Parks you are extremely mistaken. In fact, this goes against the general trend of those things in that it seeks to make government be a biased actor beholden to public sentiment in criminal trials. Part of the deal with Rosa Parks is those laws she was taking a stand against were popularly enacted laws, and the side of civil rights was advocating for the injustice of those laws regardless of their popularity. You’re arguing for something to be done to Zimmerman based on the random legal mumblings of a mob and not the legal authority and decision making of the people we as a society have entrusted to run our criminal justice system. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=47)