# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/921 "2012-03-20T22:10:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > And yet Trayvon’s girlfriend says he told her he wasn’t going to run. > > So which tape do we trust? Both of them? The teenager’s reaction was to get away from Zimmerman. We can quibble about the speed he chose to distance himself from Zimmerman, but wasn’t it the case that in the phone call to his girlfriend he was going to try to get away from the man who was following him, by walking fast? Both of those tapes, however, seem to contradict Zimmerman’s subsequent story that he made no effort to follow Trayvon Martin, and that, on the contrary, Travyon Martin pursued and attacked Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/922 "2012-03-20T22:10:17Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > And yet Trayvon’s girlfriend says he told her he wasn’t going to run. > > So which tape do we trust? They can both be true, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/923 "2012-03-20T22:13:34Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Both of them? The teenager’s reaction was to get away from Zimmerman. We can quibble about the speed he chose to distance himself from Zimmerman, but wasn’t it the case that in the phone call to his girlfriend he was going to try to get away from the man who was following him? > > Both of those tapes, however, seem to contradict Zimmerman’s subsequent story that he made no effort to follow Trayvon Martin, and that, on the contrary, Travyon Martin pursued and attacked Zimmerman. We actually don’t know factually what Zimmerman’s side is (we’re again assuming the news is correct.) The whole point Martin’s family’s lawyer has made with the girlfriend’s tapes are that they end right as the confrontation begins, and yet her account seemingly is that Martin wasn’t running. I don’t think Zimmerman approaching Martin is the same thing as a chase, and if Martin wasn’t actually fleeing Zimmerman I think it hard to argue he was being chased. Again you guys try to interpret everything as though it is an undeniable split against Zimmerman. The very fact that so much of this is _arguable_ demonstrates a fundamental weakness in the State’s case, you guys seem to think that disputed evidence is assumed to go against the guy you all dislike the most. I don’t think that is the way criminal trials actually operate. In another SYG case going on right now the defendant has petitioned a judge to dismiss the case, and that could very well happen. He’s supposed to make his decision soon. It’s not just a jury you would have to sell with your one-sided interpretations, but a judge as well, and a judge may very well look at a body of disputed evidence and decide there is no serious way the State can contest Zimmerman’s rights under SYG given the evidence presented. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/924 "2012-03-20T22:15:58Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In fact, this goes against the general trend of those things in that it seeks to make government be a biased actor beholden to public sentiment in criminal trials. Part of the deal with Rosa Parks is those laws she was taking a stand against were popularly enacted laws, and the side of civil rights was advocating for the injustice of those laws regardless of their popularity. You’re arguing for something to be done to Zimmerman based on the random legal mumblings of a mob and not the legal authority and decision making of the people we as a society have entrusted to run our criminal justice system. Not true. I am saying that I am opposed to these “Stand Your Ground” laws and this is a perfect example of why they should be repealed. So I am opposing a law, regardless of its popularity. I am _also_ saying that, _based on what we know_, it would be wrong to say that Zimmerman is presenting a credible case of self-defense, and even under the current “Stand Your Ground” law, he should be charged and brought to trial, barring further exculpating evidence. ---
**Author:** ![OnePercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6f9a4e/32.png) [@OnePercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OnePercent)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/925 "2012-03-20T22:17:29Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Shooting someone in the back when he is running away from you? Is that what these laws are supposed to enable you to do? I would generally say no, but I wasn’t there obviously. In any event the Grand Jury declined to prosecute so his story must have been compelling. I have a hard time imagining that the entire jury was made up of people who have a “shoot first ask questions later” type of mentality. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/926 "2012-03-20T22:18:29Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > We actually don’t know factually what Zimmerman’s side is (we’re again assuming the news is correct.) Well, if you go on the assumption that everything we read in the newspaper could be a pack of lies, we don’t have much to talk about, do we? Might as well close down any discussion of news, current events, foreign policy, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/927 "2012-03-20T22:19:44Z")
> [@OnePercent](#): > > I have a hard time imagining that the entire jury was made up of people who have a “shoot first ask questions later” type of mentality. You forget that this case was in Texas. 😉 But seriously, if you have access to testimony showing that he was justified in shooting someone in the back, or that in fact the events did not happen as described, please share with me! I would be glad to read it. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/928 "2012-03-20T22:22:00Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The whole point Martin’s family’s lawyer has made with the girlfriend’s tapes are that they end right as the confrontation begins, and yet her account seemingly is that Martin wasn’t running.. I edited my post before you replied to it, but I checked in a news article, and the girlfriend says that Trayvon told her was going to be “walking fast”. I think you’re making too much of the distinction between “running” and “walking fast”. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/929 "2012-03-20T22:22:33Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > We actually don’t know factually what Zimmerman’s side is (we’re again assuming the news is correct.) The whole point Martin’s family’s lawyer has made with the girlfriend’s tapes are that they end right as the confrontation begins, and yet her account seemingly is that Martin wasn’t running. What girlfriend’s tapes? You mean the ones she made to the lawyer? Her account is not that he wasn’t running, her account is that he sai dhe wasn’t going to run and then she said she heard a confrontation, but I don’t know where you get the idea that she said he never ran. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/930 "2012-03-20T22:27:18Z")
Ok, here’s a link: [Trayvon Martin Exclusive: Friend on Phone with Teen Before Death Recalls Final Moments](http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-killing-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html) By MATT GUTMAN and SENI TIENABESO | Good Morning America – 15 hours ago > [@](#): > > “He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,” Martin’s friend said. “I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.” > > Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he’d managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin. > > “Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn’t answer the phone.” (I’m putting in a direct quote because in my experience these links to [yahoo.com](http://yahoo.com) news items tend to become invalid fairly quickly) ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/931 "2012-03-20T22:30:40Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > And yet Trayvon’s girlfriend says he told her he wasn’t going to run. > > So which tape do we trust? There was a bit more after that. > [@](#): > > **Although Martin initially told his girlfriend he wasn’t going to run, he eventually did, she said** , but the stranger managed to corner him.“Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the headset just fell. I called him again and he didn’t answer the phone.” Edit: Sorry to restate the point, typing on a tablet is slow business. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/932 "2012-03-20T22:34:31Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Not true. I am saying that I am opposed to these “Stand Your Ground” laws and this is a perfect example of why they should be repealed. So I am opposing a law, regardless of its popularity. > > I am _also_ saying that, _based on what we know_, it would be wrong to say that Zimmerman is presenting a credible case of self-defense, and even under the current “Stand Your Ground” law, he should be charged and brought to trial, barring further exculpating evidence. Jeffrey Toobin of CNN, also a lawyer with real legal experience (like Bricker and the former Federal Prosecutor turned law professor I cited) and he said the case against Zimmerman will be very difficult because of the Stand Your Ground law. I’m aware of the logical fallacy of “appeal to authority” but the law is essentially an arcane body of rules that requires a great deal of technical expertise and knowledge to utilize in court, and quite simply layman are ill equipped to judge it. I think it is telling the professionals are not on your side when they talk about the strength of Zimmerman’s self defense claims. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/933 "2012-03-20T22:35:34Z")
> [@Terraplane](#): > > There was a bit more after that. > > Edit: Sorry to restate the point, typing on a tablet is slow business. It appears then there is no inherent conflict between the reported phone call and Zimmerman’s stating “he’s running.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/934 "2012-03-20T22:39:21Z")
I’ll just simply remind that when we’re just chatting about stuff as it appears in the news it isn’t the same as evidence in court. A lot of the stuff you guys think is a smoking gun may not even be allowed into the court as evidence. Again, as a layman I don’t know what would or wouldn’t go in, but generally in a lot of cases like this everyone assumes every piece of negative evidence will go in, but I don’t think that is always the case. It’s my understanding early in the trial process there is a hearing where the defense will try to have each piece of evidence presented by the State thrown out, and some of the stuff you guys are so convinced by may not even make it past that stage. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/935 "2012-03-20T22:40:28Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Some 17 year-olds look like fully grown men. Trayvon Martin was 6’3" and 140 pounds. Either he was on his way to a very skinny adulthood or more likely he was still in that awkward growth-spurt phase. Look at the pictures, he was still a kid. > > . You really consider SIX FOOT 3 INCHES to look like a KID?!?:eek: ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/936 "2012-03-20T22:40:56Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Jeffrey Toobin of CNN, also a lawyer with real legal experience (like Bricker and the former Federal Prosecutor turned law professor I cited) and he said the case against Zimmerman will be very difficult because of the Stand Your Ground law. > > I’m aware of the logical fallacy of “appeal to authority” but the law is essentially an arcane body of rules that requires a great deal of technical expertise and knowledge to utilize in court, and quite simply layman are ill equipped to judge it. I think it is telling the professionals are not on your side when they talk about the strength of Zimmerman’s self defense claims. Oh yeah? Well, see post 904. The two Florida state legislators who are described in the article as “the fathers of the ‘Stand Your Ground’ law” think that Zimmerman should be prosecuted. So there! 😛 Also, there is a certain attorney for the Martin family, neamed Benjamin Crump, who thinks that Mr. Zimmerman should be charged. I assume that he is a lawyer with real legal experience? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/937 "2012-03-20T22:43:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You really consider SIX FOOT 3 INCHES to look like a KID?!?:eek: I know a 14-year-old girl who is 6’1" (she has a very tall father) and her sister, at 12, is 5’9". There is no way they could be mistaken as adults by anyone seeing them - they look like young teenagers. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/938 "2012-03-20T22:52:49Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Oh yeah? Well, see post 904. The two Florida state legislators who are described in the article as “the fathers of the ‘Stand Your Ground’ law” think that Zimmerman should be prosecuted. So there! 😛 > > Also, there is a certain attorney for the Martin family, neamed Benjamin Crump, who thinks that Mr. Zimmerman should be charged. I assume that he is a lawyer with real legal experience? Well those are two politicians, not two experts on how the law actually works. Politicians can help craft law, but they are less than expert at how that law will actually work in the court system. Both through ignorance of legal procedure and due to ignorance oftentimes of the very wording in statutes they ostensibly sponsor and vote on. Finally, as politicians their goal is to curry favor with voters _now_, and if this SYG is starting to look unpopular because it got a teenage boy killed you better believe the brain dead politicos who sponsored it are going to be doing everything they can to distance themselves from the legislation. It’s an important point to note though, politicians literally make decisions that have life or death impact, and most of them will try to avoid the ramifications of that if possible. The Martin’s attorney’s listed specialties is Medical Malpractice, Personal Injury, and Wrongful Death. He’s not an expert on the criminal aspects and what he’s looking for is the juicy potentials in a wrongful death suit. I don’t mean that to disparage Crump, if you’ve ever genuinely suffered medical malpractice, personal injury through the tortious actions of another, or have a family member who suffered a wrongful death I think lawyers of this sort will take on a very different connotation. They are often advocates for the weak against the powerful, and of course they make a lot of money doing it (Crump was named Philanthropist of the Year by the Association of Fundraising Professions just recently.) ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/939 "2012-03-20T23:02:27Z")
We can go back and forth on whose legal opinion is better. But if the court system worked that way, we wouldn’t need to have trials: just look at the resumes of the attorneys and decide based on that. I read an [opinion piece by Jeffrey Toobin](http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/opinion/toobin-trayvon-martin/index.html) and I didn’t get the impression from his article that he was recommending that prosecutors refrain from pressing charges. He did say that that the law “gives a lot of deference to the perpetrator of a violent act.” The main thrust of his article seemed to me to be disparaging these “Stand Your Ground” laws. And on that point, I agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/940 "2012-03-20T23:46:19Z")
This is insane. If you listen to the 911 calls, it’s clear that Trayvon is yelling for help BEFORE ZImmerman shoots him. There’s boatloads more, but that all by itself is everything. Zimmerman is a murderer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=48)