# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/981 "2012-03-21T03:16:21Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Zimmerman said it was raining. Not that I think we need to justify Martin wearing a hoodie. I checked and the closest weather station, which is about 1/4 of a mile away, and it show it started raining a little before 7pm. [http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KFLLAKEM2&month=2&day=26&year=2012](http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KFLLAKEM2&month=2&day=26&year=2012) Why would you take Zimmerman’s word on something that is easy to check? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/982 "2012-03-21T03:20:01Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] He posts reams and reams of legalistic expertise, supposedly completely dispassionate and all-suffering of us hysterical fools. And then suddenly–as soon as it can longer be denied that Zimmerman is a dirty liar–he starts calling out the “angry blacks” and the “nobodies”. [/QUOTE] Heh, I noticed that too. It’s like at first, when it seemed pretty clear this whole thing was going to be swept under, the tone was all like “It was such a tragic situation, Martin seemed like a good kid and Zimmerman is an idiot, but what can we do? The law is the law. But I feel your pain.” But now that the state has decided to give this to a grand jury, you’d a thought blacks were rioting in the streets and looting by some of the reactions in this thread. Mob rule, really? Evidence against Zimmerman is going to be reviewed by group of his peers, and this actually _bothers_ people? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/983 "2012-03-21T03:37:27Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So I guess you’ve officially abandoned your position that the races of the participants has nothing to do with your feelings about this case? So what if it does? I personally don’t care if monstro is the regional V.P. of the BLACK PANTHERS: MILITANT OFFSHOOT HATE WHITEY DIVISION, it doesn’t mean squat in whether she’s right or wrong in this matter and all the ad homs in the world will not change that. But, for the record, I am white. Very white. I am “I own Julie Andrews CDs” white. So perhaps somehow my opinion will mean more to you than monstro’s does when I say this case makes me want to vomit. Whether he meets the legal definition of one in Florida or not, Zimmerman killed an innocent boy, and I hope the piece of shit’s head goes not down to Sheol in peace. If he is not arrested, I predict that sooner or later he will be killed “in self defense”. I won’t be glad when that happens but I sure as hell won’t shed a tear or even say “Aw”. And I hope every member of the police force associated with this case loses their job. And again, I don’t know Florida law and I freely concede it, but he meets the definition of murder that I think most decent people would agree on (i.e. he killed an unarmed person unnecessarily). It is better he was never born, and I feel much the same way about the responding officers. I lean left but I’m not a kneejerk liberal, I’m not awash in white liberal guilt, but I think only the self deluded would claim race is not an issue in the fact there has been no arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/984 "2012-03-21T03:39:04Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Elections are supposed to be democratic, prosecutions are not. To be honest, and while it’s a total aside, prosecutors shouldn’t be elected at all. Neither should sheriffs. Authorities are human beings. They are not gods. They are capable of being corrupt, and/or making mistakes. 99.9% of the time prosecutors make decisions without any serious public questioning. I have thoroughly reviewed all the publicly available details in this case, and I believe that a gross miscarriage of justice has occurred. Having come to this conclusion, it would be wrong of me to simply shut up and blindly trust what the Sanford Police Chief says about the case. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/985 "2012-03-21T03:41:35Z")
I think, because of the nature of the case it wasn’t directly evident that Zimmerman had committed a crime. by this I mean it takes time to develop it to the point it goes to a grand jury despite an overwhelming “feeling” that he has committed a crime. Based on the initial read my feeling has always been that it will move beyond that point and Zimmerman will have his day in court but the time lag involved is perceived as an injustice. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/986 "2012-03-21T03:43:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I will acknowledge that if the prosecution can prove any illegal motive, they can probably get to second degree murder. > > But they have to prove that intent beyond a reasonable doubt. Right now, there isn’t enough evidence to do that. > [@](#): > > 7.4 MURDER—SECOND DEGREE > § 782.04(2), Fla.Stat. > To prove the crime of Second Degree Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt: > > 1. ( **Trayvon** ) is dead. > > 2. The death was caused by the criminal act of (Zimmerman). > > 3. There was an unlawful killing of (victim) by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life. Obviously Florida has some freewheelin’ attitudes about what constitutes being “without regard for human life”, but still, a sizable number of people think that stalking someone who has done nothing wrong with a gun in your hand kinda qualifies as both imminently dangerous and having a disregard for human life. Especially the life of the human you are stalking. After being told not to by the authorities. > [@](#): > > Definitions. > An “act” includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose. The vast majority of the information we’ve gotten points to Zimmerman acting like a pseudo-cop/vigilante for a long time, and he was certainly doing so this time as well. That was his design and purpose here. And it’s an illegal design and purpose, even in Florida. > [@](#): > > An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that: > > 1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and Again with the gun and the general POV, “reasonable” being the point of disagreement, of course… > [@](#): > > 1. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and Guy on the phone sounded pretty spiteful to me… > [@](#): > > 1. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life. Yet again we’re back to the gun, and the stalking (AFTER being told not to, especially) And, after all: > [@](#): > > In order to convict of Second Degree Murder, it is **not necessary** for the State to prove the defendant **had an intent to cause death**. It’s very clear from this thread that not _everyone_ would, with the information we have thus far, vote to convict Zimmerman of second degree murder under Florida law. But it’s also clear that a whole lot of other people absolutely would. > [@monstro](#): > > His record is not squeaky clean. In addition to the “expunged” arrest for assault, he had complaints made against him. Yep. Zimmerman was arrested in Orange County in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with [violence and battery on a law enforcement officer](http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=5782626). > [@](#): > > The reason why the number of police calls keeps getting cited is because it indicates this guy was primed for hunting out “bad” guys. You know the old saying? When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail? Well, **Zimmerman’s** hammer might have been tired of going after tacks and splitters. Martin may have looked like the perfect nail. This may have been Zimmerman’s golden opportunity to show that he had what it takes to be a good cop–that he was much better than this Deputy Dog hall monitor crap. He was going to nail him a real bad guy and get himself on the front page of the newspaper. Not only that, but here’s an interesting [article](http://www.komonews.com/news/national/Holding-a-gun-may-make-you-think-others-are-too--143562996.html) about some interesting studies that might help explain Zimmerman’s behavior (the gun lovers are going to freak): > [@](#): > > In the study, volunteers who held a toy gun and glimpsed fleeting images of people holding an object were biased toward thinking the object was a gun. > > Brockmole said it’s possible that Zimmerman’s perception might have been skewed **by being armed**. > > Race may have also played a role. Martin is black; Zimmerman’s family says he is Hispanic. Past research suggests that people can be **more likely to perceive a poorly seen object as a gun if it’s held by a black person** than by a white person, experts say > [@Terraplane](#): > > Normal poeple don’t behave like this guy did. To my own shock and horror it seems like what he did may have been legal, at least by what the police had at the time, but it’s certainly not normal or reasonable anywhere. Amen. > [@monstro](#): > > How am I being a lunatic? What have I said in this thread that would make any reasonable person think I am a lunatic? Not a thing. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You are clearly trying to have it both ways. We all know that this story wouldn’t be much of a story, and you personally wouldn’t care so much about it, if both the shooter and victim were white. I’ll stand right up with my middle-aged white woman self and say that if Trayvon had been white this never would have happened, so in that sense you’re absolutely right. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/987 "2012-03-21T03:46:16Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Based on the initial read my feeling has always been that it will move beyond that point and Zimmerman will have his day in court but the time lag involved is perceived as an injustice. [/QUOTE] In my opinion rightfully. If a black teenager had killed a white guy in “self defense” his face would have been touching concrete with the barrel of a gun at the back of his head and anybody who thinks otherwise has never lived in a predominantly black area of town. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/988 "2012-03-21T03:50:44Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I checked and the closest weather station, which is about 1/4 of a mile away, and it show it started raining a little before 7pm. > > [http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KFLLAKEM2&month=2&day=26&year=2012](http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KFLLAKEM2&month=2&day=26&year=2012) > > Why would you take Zimmerman’s word on something that is easy to check? What would be the point? Martin wearing a hoodie is not relevant to whether or not he posed a threat to Zimmerman’s life. A hoodie is not a weapon, nor is it suspicious to wear one. Raining or not. Cold or hot. Today I had on a fleece vest despite it being quite warm today (upper 70s). Not only am I more sensitive to cool breezes than an average person, but I was using the pockets to secure my keys and wallet. Would it be reasonable for someone to view me with suspicion based on this run-of-the-mill attire? No. My vest could easily have a hood on it, and it would be equally innocuous if I had turned it up. If we’re going to focus so much on Trayvon’s attire (which matters naught), we should do the same regarding Zimmerman. Was he wearing anything that would identify him as “authority”? A badge? A uniform? An embossed cap? Anything that would announce, “Hey, I’m not a random guy looking to hurt you. So please do not hurt me.” That is more important to the discussion than what Trayvon was wearing. But even that is ancillary to the issue of whether Zimmerman’s story makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/989 "2012-03-21T03:54:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Heh, I noticed that too. It’s like at first, when it seemed pretty clear this whole thing was going to be swept under, the tone was all like “It was such a tragic situation, Martin seemed like a good kid and Zimmerman is an idiot, but what can we do? The law is the law. But I feel your pain.” > > But now that the state has decided to give this to a grand jury, you’d a thought blacks were rioting in the streets and looting by some of the reactions in this thread. Mob rule, really? Evidence against Zimmerman is going to be reviewed by group of his peers, and this actually _bothers_ people? I know, amazing, isn’t it? > [@Sampiro](#): > > In my opinion rightfully. If a black teenager had killed a white guy in “self defense” his face would have been touching concrete with the barrel of a gun at the back of his head and anybody who thinks otherwise has never lived in a predominantly black area of town. C’mon, Sampiro, you know better than that… anyone who thinks otherwise - okay, I’ll be more specific: any American-raised adult over the age of 25 who thinks otherwise - is willfully embracing a fantasy. This is _America_. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/990 "2012-03-21T03:57:51Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > … But now that the state has decided to give this to a grand jury, you’d a thought blacks were rioting in the streets and looting by some of the reactions in this thread. Mob rule, really? Evidence against Zimmerman is going to be reviewed by group of his peers, and this actually _bothers_ people? Worst. Lynch-mob. Ever. ☹ 😉 CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/991 "2012-03-21T03:59:50Z")
I would just like to thank the white posters who have waved their hands in this thread. It is heartening to see that although race may have played a role in this case, the public outrage is crossing the color lines. It is not a bunch of “angry blacks”, but angry PEOPLE, who have made this an issue. I am relieved that there seems to be some unity for a change. There are a couple of Dopers who have expressed sadness/anger about this case who do not share my politics and who I rarely agree with about anything. That makes me feel good, too. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/992 "2012-03-21T04:05:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But even that is ancillary to the issue of whether Zimmerman’s story makes sense. Latest “Are you fucking kidding me?” from Zimmerman’s story… he didn’t get out of his car to approach Martin, he “he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on.” Because he couldn’t see the street sign from his car…:rolleyes: And he _needed_ to because he suddenly had no idea where he could possibly be…😕 in his own neighborhood.:smack: The one he’s been essentially patrolling for months. :rolleyes: And this strange need to see this particular sign just coincidentally occurred mere steps away from the kid he’d called 911 about a few moments earlier. Right. And you’re the lunatic. Good lord… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/993 "2012-03-21T04:10:50Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > In my opinion rightfully. If a black teenager had killed a white guy in “self defense” his face would have been touching concrete with the barrel of a gun at the back of his head and anybody who thinks otherwise has never lived in a predominantly black area of town. Where to begin with that. Lets start with the fact that you created a different scenario and thus a strawman to make a point. Lets flip the ACTUAL event. Had a black adult shot a white teenager in a claimed self defense event nothing would have changed. It would still take time to run it through a grand jury. It takes time to do this because it’s not a cut-and-dried case and botching it out of the gate serves no purpose. A thread regarding gun related deaths correlated by race and age would be an interesting read and I encourage you to start one. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/994 "2012-03-21T04:19:39Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > In my opinion rightfully. If a black teenager had killed a white guy in “self defense” his face would have been touching concrete with the barrel of a gun at the back of his head and anybody who thinks otherwise has never lived in a predominantly black area of town. White woman chiming in here to say I couldn’t agree more. I HAVE lived in a predominantly black and poor part of town for several years (during college a whole bunch of us rented a very large house in a very bad part of town) and have seen first-hand the difference in police response between black and white people. In fact, I have personally been asked by a 911 operator “Is the victim black or white? Is the assailant black or white?” Not what color clothing/jackets/identifiers they might have had on, but WERE THEY BLACK OR WHITE. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/995 "2012-03-21T04:20:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It is not a bunch of “angry blacks”, but angry PEOPLE, who have made this an issue. I am relieved that there seems to be some unity for a change. I just want to say that _OF COURSE_ the fact that you’re black and you or someone you care about has probably had to deal with profiling makes this more personal to you, but in spite of what others seem to believe _THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT_. As a gay man I get more emotionally invested in stories about injustice against gays. I’m guessing Cambodian Americans get more interested in stories about injustice to Cambodian Americans. Anybody who says that their own demographics don’t have some bearing on their emotions is either lying or has an emotional detachment disorder. However, feeling something more personally than others doesn’t mean you’re too hysterical to make an intelligent assessment, in spite of what some people on here seem to think. (And frankly if you weren’t an ‘angry black’ before you’d have really good cause after this thread.) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/996 "2012-03-21T04:22:59Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] A thread regarding gun related deaths correlated by race and age would be an interesting read and I encourage you to start one. [/QUOTE] I hope that I’m misreading this, but are you really taking the opportunity of an unarmed 17 year old’s death to advocate for profiling? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/997 "2012-03-21T04:29:12Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I hope that I’m misreading this, but are you really taking the opportunity of an unarmed 17 year old’s death to advocate for profiling? Your point was off the mark. If the situation was reversed, nothing would have changed. Your example was a drill down to a single factor of race and I responded to that. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/998 "2012-03-21T04:33:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Your point was off the mark. If the situation was reversed, nothing would have changed. Your example was a drill down to a single factor of race and I responded to that. So you honestly think that there’s no dichotomy in black and white with how they are treated by the police? Cops behave exactly by the book and the same in all cases with no racism whatever, or at least not enough to be statistically significant. Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/999 "2012-03-21T04:35:04Z")
If it was a black cop and a white youth walking through a gated community at night, the white youth wouldn’t have been followed. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1000 "2012-03-21T04:35:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Where to begin with that. Lets start with the fact that you created a different scenario and thus a strawman to make a point. > > Lets flip the ACTUAL event. Had a black adult shot a white teenager in a claimed self defense event nothing would have changed. It would still take time to run it through a grand jury. It takes time to do this because it’s not a cut-and-dried case and botching it out of the gate serves no purpose. > > A thread regarding gun related deaths correlated by race and age would be an interesting read and I encourage you to start one. > [@Magiver](#): > > Your point was off the mark. If the situation was reversed, nothing would have changed. Your example was a drill down to a single factor of race and I responded to that. ??? Nothing would have been different? The cops would have said “Black adult shooting white teenager clearly felt threatened, no need to arrest him.” ??? You want us to believe that YOU believe that’s what would have happened if the races had been reversed? I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t believe it for a second. If you believe you believe that, then I think you are profoundly lacking in self-awareness and are stunningly successful at bullshitting yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=51)