# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1101 "2012-03-21T19:03:21Z")
> [@Hmmmm](#): > > Zimmerman definitely referred to the kid as a “coon” at 2:21 [http://youtu.be/9OT7olbN5JI](http://youtu.be/9OT7olbN5JI) I can’t listen to that right this second, but I heard the previous link floated. It’s not obvious to me that that’s what he said. I’ve heard some claiming he said, “Fucking punks.” Honest to Buddha, what I heard the first time around was, “Fucking cops,” my interpretation being he wasn’t happy with the “cops” (the 911 guy) telling him to stay put. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1102 "2012-03-21T19:08:47Z")
I don’t know what they can prove or charge the guy with, but I think he followed that load confronted him incurred a confrontation and shot him. Now you can poor upper lawyer hat on and say we don’t know this and we don’t know that or you can put on your uninvolved person with an opinion. I just made the latter and would be interested in what some of the lawyers think happened not what they know happened ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1103 "2012-03-21T19:11:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Calling Trayvon Martin a nobody is nothing more than fact, and it has nothing to do with race. It’s simply to illustrate a point that one random teenager in Florida, no matter how unfairly he has been treated, should be reason to throw out 225+ years of constitutional freedoms and protections and rule of law. Oh give it a break. This isn’t about 225+ years of law. It’s about an ill-executed stand your ground law that’s only a few years old. The lawmaker’s themselves have stated that it was intended to let people meet force with force, not so some wannabe cop can shoot the unarmed guy that punched him in the nose. Unless Martin was ready to smash Zimmerman’s head with a rock it’s preposterous to consider this anything close to a justified killing. Maybe you should consider trying to earn your constitutional protector internet brownie points on a case that actually deserves it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1104 "2012-03-21T19:18:23Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Stood, go read the wikipesia entry on “Intention (criminal law)” and pay special attention to “general intent.” As we have stated to you several times, you cantjust read some statutes and think you fully understand the law. Yes. There are a couple important points. The first is the difference between general intent (roughly, an intention to undertake the act that resulted in the killing) and specific intent (roughly, the intention to do something bad or illegal). Non-lawyers seem to believe that the intent requirement means the intention to commit a crime (in the sense of “I want to break the law”), but typically, the intent requirement is general intent, which means only that the you intended to do the law-breaking act, quite apart from whether you had any specific criminal outcome or motivation in mind. So, if you throw a bomb into a bus without knowing whether the bus is occupied or not, and it turns out the bus was occupied and you injured some passengers, you have committed battery, a general intent crime, because you had the requisite general intent. That is, your bomb-throwing was a voluntary act. It doesn’t matter that you (because of your ignorance as to whether the bus was occupied or not) did not specifically intend any injuries. Perhaps you even intended not to injure anyone (you mistakenly believed the bus was empty). That doesn’t change it, because it is a general intent crime (did you intend to throw the bomb?). So, with that a prologue, the next thing to know is how murder was defined at common law. Murder = (actus reus) killing of another + (mens rea) malice aforethought. Malice aforethought encompasses four things, any one of which brings you into malice aforethought territory: (1) The intention to kill another (2) The intention to cause serious bodily harm (3) Extreme recklessness in endagering the lives of others (sometimes called “depraved indifference”) (4) The intention to commit a felony (felony murder, or murder arising in connection with the commission of a felony) As a side note, observe that the law attributes intention to commit X when you intend to do Y and know to a legal certainty that X will result. Also, note, the first two intentions are specific intention. To satisfy (1) you must intend to kill another, not merely intend to undertake an act that results in another’s death. Obviously (3) and (4) are general intent. You can’t have specific recklessness and general intent to commit the felony is enough. The last bit of background is how degrees of murder are defined. Generally, first degree murder is _premeditated_ murder. Premeditation only kind of means what laypeople think “premeditated” means. One particular area of deviation is that the law holds that premeditation may be formed in an instant. Unpremeditated killing with malice aforethought is murder in the second degrees … Now, review the definition at issue: > [@](#): > > any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree We see a couple familiar things. First, we see a reference to depravity. Second, we see a reference to the absence of premeditation. This accords with the common law definition of murder in the second degree. Malice aforethought (3) is betokened by the “depraved mind” requirement. The absence of premeditation downgrades it to second degree murder. But, the mens rea requirement is still present, _i.e._, depraved mind/indifference (or extremem recklnessness as the Model Penal Code has it (I believe)). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1105 "2012-03-21T19:23:17Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > No. > I have a general idea. > > OK then. > > No, this I disagree with. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to speculate that the jurors refused to indict Mr. Horn because they thought his behaviour fit the definition of the law, and then try to figure out what law they thought would apply in this case. Isn’t that how Grand Jurys work? Or, since you’ve been on one, perhaps you can tell me. Are people on a Grand Jury expected or instructed to make a decision disregarding any laws? I just have to say what I always say when someone asks me “Doc, how could the Grand Jury possibly not bring a indictment, when the evidence is so clear the suspect is guilty?” And my answer is “Because you are ignorant, that’s why”. In the Horn case, it looks like the GJ met for about 2 weeks. Which means that they likely heard about 40 hours of evidence. The wiki page is less than a half-hour of evidence. Thus, ipso facto, the public only knows less than /100th of the facts in this case- those facts that a biased media has decided to use for “news”. Of course, since GJ testimony is SECRET there’s a very good chance that the Media itself is simply ignorant, that evidence was presented to the GJ that made a indictment unlikely and that only the GJ will ever know this evidence. Thus (and I don’t mean this as a insult) you are ignorant of the evidence. You are making your mind up based upon less than 1/100th of what the GJ heard. A GJ generally does not speculate upon the law or a possible defense. The DA presents the evidence, and based upon that evidence alone, the GJ is supposed to make a decision . What you are thinking of is how a Jury is supposed to deliberate, not a Grand Jury. The two processes are quite different. Right, Bricker? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1106 "2012-03-21T19:39:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What is the other criminal act? Could easily be harassment or assault. Or any of the number of vague blanket charges police use when they can’t make a real charge stick. ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1107 "2012-03-21T19:42:51Z")
[Feds](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/as-justice-department-investigates-shooting-of-florida-teen-doubts-arise-about-federal-charges/2012/03/20/gIQAzGeRQS_story.html) doubt they can bring charges against Zimmerman. It appears they were considering charging Zimmerman under hate crime laws, which I think is absurd. I think he committed murder, but I think he will get away with it because of Florida’s idiotic SYG law. I don’t think it was a hate crime. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1108 "2012-03-21T19:45:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I just have to say what I always say when someone asks me “Doc, how could the Grand Jury possibly not bring a indictment, when the evidence is so clear the suspect is guilty?” And my answer is “Because you are ignorant, that’s why”. Fair enough. Is there a way to read Grand Jury testimony online? I don’t have time to drive down to a courthouse in Texas to read it. We cam approach Mr. Horn’s case differently. According to Texas law, if you are presented with a case such as described in the Wikipedia article concering Mr. Horn, what laws do you think could be used as a defense? I imagine that when hypotheticals of this sort are presented in law school, the professors wouldn’t accept an answer such as “I need hundreds of pages of testimony before I can try to answer that question.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1109 "2012-03-21T19:47:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > A GJ generally does not speculate upon the law or a possible defense. The DA presents the evidence, and based upon that evidence alone, the GJ is supposed to make a decision . What you are thinking of is how a Jury is supposed to deliberate, not a Grand Jury. The two processes are quite different. > > Right, Bricker? Er… yes. I say ‘er’ only because the grand jury does get instructed on the law, because their function is to determine if sufficient facts exist to support probable cause. But their “teacher” is the prosecutor. He alone explains what the law says and what it means. The target of a grand jury investigation doesn’t even necessarily have to appear. If he does, he gets no lawyer. The prosecutor questions witnesses and then he explains to the grand jury what he wishes them to indict for, and then they vote – there is, by the way, no unanimity requirement. Typically a super-majority of grand jurors is enough to indict. Police, in contrast, are supposed to consider the totality of circumstances known to them. The prosecutor has no obligation to present exculpatory evidence to the grand jury. Several years ago, **GFactor** and I co-authored a [Staff Report](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2256/who-invented-the-grand-jury) on the grand jury system. You may find it of interest. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1110 "2012-03-21T19:49:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Here is a primer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intention_(criminal_law)) on how _intent_ as an element of most criminal laws, and must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. > > LOL! OMG! I’m not sure where you are going with your link. The point is that it’s tortured logic to claim there can be no murder charge in this case without intent to kill, be shown that there doesn’t have to be intent to kill for a murder charge, and then claim it still counts because there was legal intent of some sort. Your original point was about intent to kill, not about intent in the general sense. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1111 "2012-03-21T19:50:10Z")
> [@Hmmmm](#): > > Zimmerman definitely referred to the kid as a “coon” at 2:21 [http://youtu.be/9OT7olbN5JI](http://youtu.be/9OT7olbN5JI) It does kinda sound like it might be “fuckin’ coons,” but it’s not definite. Searching for a racist perjorative here is, I think, concentrating on the wrong problem; the real issues here are what appear to be 1. A really, really stupid law, and 2. The fact that the Sanford PD, from what we know so far, didn’t do much of a job investigating what happened, and then had their chief make public statements he simply shouldn’t have made that suggested a callous and nonchalant attitude towards the case. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1112 "2012-03-21T19:52:44Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > But, the mens rea requirement is still present, _i.e._, depraved mind/indifference (or extremem recklnessness as the Model Penal Code has it (I believe)). Yup. Although my own state is a common law state, so the MPC is a bit hazy in my recollection. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1113 "2012-03-21T19:58:50Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Fair enough. Is there a way to read Grand Jury testimony online? I don’t have time to drive down to a courthouse in Texas to read it. > > We cam approach Mr. Horn’s case differently. According to Texas law, if you are presented with a case such as described in the Wikipedia article concering Mr. Horn, what laws do you think could be used as a defense? I imagine that when hypotheticals of this sort are presented in law school, the professors wouldn’t accept an answer such as “I need hundreds of pages of testimony before I can try to answer that question.” Generally all criminal GJ proceeding are secret. And, like I said, in general, what the Defense come up with is not a issue in GJ proceedings. Yes, of course you’re right Bricker. The DA does present what the law is to the GJ. But generally not what the defense may or may not be. Very nice article, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1114 "2012-03-21T20:02:35Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I’m not sure where you are going with your link. > > The point is that it’s tortured logic to claim there can be no murder charge in this case without intent to kill, be shown that there doesn’t have to be intent to kill for a murder charge, and then claim it still counts because there was legal intent of some sort. Your original point was about intent to kill, not about intent in the general sense. No, my original post wasn’t about intent to kill. Myy original [post, #1011,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14886991&postcount=1011) was correcting the “almost right” phrasing **Stoid** used: > [@Stoid](#): > > As for what you feel cannot be stressed enough, not to mention what you think is and is not absurd, you may want to check with the Florida legislature, Since intention is not a feature of most of the ways that murder is defined in Florida law. Whatever you may think of the importance of intention, Florida does not agree. Florida calls it murder if you’re the person who sold the drugs to the fool who took too much and died. hardly intentional. I corrected her – there is an intent requirement, just not an intent to commit a killing. I acknowledged that she was most right, and just slightly wrong: > [@Bricker](#): > > _Since intention is not a feature of most of the ways that murder is defined in Florida law_… WRONG. > _Florida calls it murder if you’re the person who sold the drugs to the fool who took too much and died._ Correct, but conviction still requires intent – not to cause death, but to provide drugs. Intent is an element. It’s not a strict liability crime. It has a scienter component. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1115 "2012-03-21T20:10:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Generally all criminal GJ proceeding are secret. > > And, like I said, in general, what the Defense come up with is not a issue in GJ proceedings. I wasn’t talking about Grand Jury proceedings. I was talking in general, what laws would apply. If you don’t want to discuss the matter here, fine. It seems more than reasonable to me to believe that it is the “Stand Your Ground” types of law that influenced the Grand Jury. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1116 "2012-03-21T20:11:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So if he’s concentrating on following a person, he may well end up not knowing if he’s at the corner of Retreat View and Long Oak, or Retreat View and Twin Trees, or Twin Trees and Long Oak. In fact, there are two different locations at which Retreat View and Twin Trees intersect. Yes, but he lives on Twin Trees. You want to convince a jury he got lost on his own street? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1117 "2012-03-21T20:16:39Z")
From what I understand about “Stand Your Ground” – as per CNN article “_Florida’s deadly force law, also called “stand your ground,” allows people to meet “force with force” if they believe they or someone else is in danger of being seriously harmed by an assailant”_ – it appears that the victim was the one who in fact stood his ground only his force was not a match for the force that the shooter had. It’s truly insane that this murderer is not in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1118 "2012-03-21T20:16:50Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Yes, but he lives on Twin Trees. You want to convince a jury he got lost on his own street? This is a good example of needing to know all the facts. What street sign was he near, and how near to his house was it? You’re right, I can’t imagine believing his story if he claims that the street sign he needed to check was his own street, within a couple blocks of his home. Did he claim that? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1119 "2012-03-21T20:25:37Z")
I don’t know why Joe Horn keeps getting cited, the cases aren’t that similar. Texas, like Florida, has laws that provide non-culpability for vigilante murder. In a lot of other states, Horn would have been indicted. States make all kinds of bad law and many get repealed, which might be all that sane people can hope comes out of the Zimmerman case. However, I’m holding out hope that a case can be made that Zimmerman was the instigator and therefore required to attempt all means of retreat and escape under Florida’s SYG laws. Perhaps in all their dubious wisdom, Jeb Bush and the Florida legislature should have paid heed to the nearly unanimous opposition to the SYG law from prosecutors and police. ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1120 "2012-03-21T20:34:41Z")
My interpretation of the sounds heard during Zimmerman’s 911 call are bolded below: > [@](#): > > Quote from 911 call: > Dispatcher: So it’s on the lefthand side from the clubhouse? > Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh > you go straight in, don’t turn, and make a left. Shit he’s running. > Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running? > **(2:10 Sound consistent with car door opening. Definitely hear the ding dong chime a car makes when the door is opened with the keys in the ignition.)** > Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. > **(2:14 Sound consistent with car door closing. Chimes cease.)** > Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards? > Zimmerman: The back entrance…fucking [unintelligible] > **(2:20 - 2:42 In the background you hear what sounds like wind or heavy breathing )** > Dispatcher: Are you following him? > Zimmerman: Yeah > Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that. > Zimmerman: Ok > Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name? > Zimmerman: George…He ran. > Dispatcher: Alright George what’s your last name? > **(2:42 Unidentified click. Wind/heavy breathing stops.)** To me, it sounds like Zimmerman got out of his car at 2:14 and started to follow Martin. He definitely opens and closes the door. The chime is a giveaway. You hear a lot of ambient noise between 2:20 and 2:42 that you can’t hear at other times. I can’t tell if he gets back in the car at 2:42, but the ambient noises seem to stop then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=57)