# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 65
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1281 "2012-03-23T01:17:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > answered does not equal resolved. What does that even mean? The claim is that Zimmerman’s story is inconsistent on the point. If he says he was following Martin, how could it be that he got out of his truck only to look at street sign? There is an answer that allows both to be true, without contradicting each other. So it resolves the apparent contradiction, but since it is itself speculation, it doesn’t resolve the ultimate truth of what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1282 "2012-03-23T01:19:07Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > What bothers me are people who seem to think there needs to be overwhelming proof and evidence to be merely suspicious. That the only rational approach to this thing is to wait for more evidence to roll in…when that’s all we’ve been doing for the past week. Well, sorry, but that’s just how we do things. We don’t decide criminal cases by presenting some news stories to monstro and then doing whatever monstro says. We have a different process. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1283 "2012-03-23T01:21:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I deny that the dispatcher ever asked Zimmerman if he were chasing Martin, much less that Zimmerman affirmed it. > > The dispatcher asked if Zimmerman was FOLLOWING Martin. “Chase” gives a very different picture. clearly he was pursuing someone to the exclusion of the police (who were enroute) based on his perceptions. Death ensues. The picture is one of stalking so “chase” will fill in naturally at trial. interesting what you get when pulling up the [definition](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Chase): 1. To follow rapidly in order to catch or overtake; pursue: chased the thief. 2. To follow (game) in order to capture or kill; hunt: chase foxes. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1284 "2012-03-23T01:21:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He says he was jumped him on the street near his vehicle. > > But Martin was shot on the walkway behind a house on Twin Trees Ln. Not on a street. He was found exactly in the area one would expect to find him if he were walking home and trying to evade a pursuer at the same time. > > Isnt it asking us to swallow a lot to believe that an unarmed kid would have managed to coerce or chase a gun-toting Zimmerman away from his truck, away from the street, and behind these houses? > > I find it more believable that Zimmerman chased Martin back there after the start of the altercation (but less believable than the theory that it started on the walkway due to Zimmerman following Martin there) , but what implications would this have on SYG?It seems like chasing after someone is going beyond the concept of simply not retreating. It’s engaging in behavior that unnecessarily escalates harm. The authors of the law in Florida are [on record that Zimmerman is not protected by it](http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/317608/20120321/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-stand-ground.htm). > [@](#): > > “He has no protection under my law,” Peaden told the Miami Herald. > [@Steophan](#): > > The only thing we know is where the body was found, we don’t know where he was shot. If you are claiming, as fact, that Zimmerman chased Martin anywhere, _you are making stuff up_. Speculation is one thing, although it’s only useful if it’s based on the facts we know, but that is not what **ywtf** is doing. She is pulling stuff out of thin air and claiming it as fact. Some of it is possible, in that we do not have evidence that disproves it. If it does turn out to be true, it will be pure luck that **ywtf** was correct as there is no way she can know. > > I’d like to see any evidence that there actually was a chase, to be honest. Simply saying that two people where at one point, and at some later time were at another point, is not evidence of that. Oh for god’s sake, Steophan, you bend any further backwards to find ways to make Zimmerman’'s actions acceptable and I swear you are going to sprain something. If we know that Martin’s body was found on X spot, but we have no clue whatsoever how it got there (we do, but give me a minute), any suggestion that the shot happened anywhere other than a few feet away from where Martin’s body was found has to be explained one of two ways: 1. Zimmerman shot him at spot Y, Martin died at Spot Y and Zimmerman then dragged Martin’s lifeless body to Spot X, where it was found (do I have to go into detail of why that’s not the answer?) or 1. Zimmerman shot Martin at Spot Y, and Martin continued to go on living long enough to power himself to Spot X, where he actually fell down and died. Assuming we knew NOTHING else, (but we do) the plausibility of #2 is pretty shaky simply because there would be some blood evidence between Spot Y (Presumably somewhere near Zimmerman’s truck where he got out to look at the street sign and was jumped and attacked with Skittles and ice tea) and Spot X, where Martin fell. Unless that hoodie was made of ShamWOW!, it’s hard to believe not a drop of blood between Y and X would have fallen, showing that Martin was shot somewhere other than where he was found. Hell, I nick myself shaving and there’s blood everywhere I turn, a gunshot to the chest is going to be a gusher. But none of that really matters, because we DO know something else, from eyewitnesses: > [@](#): > > Minutes after his initial conversation, lines were swamped with calls from anxious neighbors, who heard cries for help and “terrified howls” in the dark as two men struggled **just outside**. > > "A guy yelled: ‘Help! Oh, my God,’ " one man told the dispatcher. “T_ **here is two guys in the backyard with flashlights. There is a black guy down and it looks like he’s been shot and he’s dead** _.” So what do we reasonably deduce from this? That both Martin and Zimmerman were in “the backyard”. Together. Making the noises that let people know something really bad was happening. So either Zimmerman shot Martin out near his truck on the street, then pursued the fleeing and mortally wounded boy to watch him die, or he didn’t shoot him anywhere near his truck- he pursued him and _then_ shot him. And nowhere in any of these possible scenarios does Zimmerman look anything like a man fearing for his life and needing to protect himself. He looks like a fucking murderer. > [@](#): > > I’ve said before here, and I’ll say again, following is not necessarily chasing. Evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin is not evidence of any threat, or any wrongdoing. Depends on how you define “wrong”. Me, I think it’s wrong to pursue someone for no good reason with a loaded gun and scare them and, one way or another, create a situation that leaves the innocent party dead before he’s old enough to drink. And I’m not alone, it seems: > [@](#): > > Stand Your Ground Authors: ‘He Lost His Defense’ > > But Stand Your Ground is supposed to protect both ways. > > If Zimmerman had the right to defend himself when he felt he was threatened by Martin, then doesn’t surely an unarmed teenager have a far greater right to respond to the same “reasonable fear” when being followed by a man in an SUV carrying an automatic weapon? > > \*\*That’s the conclusion former Sen. Peaden has come to, \*\*especially after the release of 142 that indicate Zimmerman pursued Martin despite the dispatcher telling him to wait. He argues that Stand Your Ground is about the right to defend oneself when in imminent danger, something he doesn’t see anywhere in the case. > > “The guy lost his defense right then,” Peaden told the Miami Herald. “ **When he said ‘I’m following him,’ he lost his defense.** ” > > Rep. Baxley agrees with Peaden, saying **the law wasn’t meant to aid those who feel “like they have the authority to pursue and confront people.”** > > “That is aggravating an incident right there,” he concluded, arguing that Zimmerman’s actions were separate from and unprotected by Stand Your Ground and similar legislation. And hey, these laws are just bitchen: > [@](#): > > According to a 2010 review by the St. Petersburg Times, meanwhile, reports of justifiable homicide in the state of Florida have tripled since the law came into effect, with an average of 33 deaths a year when once the number was 12. > > Since its inception five years go, it has been invoked in at least 93 cases with 65 deaths, and has excused violence in neighborhood arguments, incidents of road rage, bar fights and even a gang shootout where a man sprayed a car with a gang member inside with 14 bullets back in 2006. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1285 "2012-03-23T01:28:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What does that even mean? The claim is that Zimmerman’s story is inconsistent on the point. If he says he was following Martin, how could it be that he got out of his truck only to look at street sign? > > There is an answer that allows both to be true, without contradicting each other. > > So it resolves the apparent contradiction, but since it is itself speculation, it doesn’t resolve the ultimate truth of what happened. How does stopping to verify location to the police negate the fact that he continued (by admission) to pursue Martin. He’s on tape saying he can’t believe the kid’s getting away. Getting away from what? what it boils down to is that he instigated a confrontation where someone dies. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1286 "2012-03-23T01:32:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > clearly he was pursuing someone to the exclusion of the police (who were enroute) based on his perceptions. Death ensues. The picture is one of stalking so “chase” will fill in naturally at trial. > > interesting what you get when pulling up the [definition](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Chase): > > 1. To follow rapidly in order to catch or overtake; pursue: chased the thief. > 2. To follow (game) in order to capture or kill; hunt: chase foxes. Nonetheless, the dispatcher does not say “chase.” and **monstro** said that the dispatcher said “chase.” By the same token, we could say “gunned down” or “shot.” Each is defensible. But if we’re ascribing quotes, let’s stick to what was said. And for whatever it’s worth, “follow” could mean “observe and report.” which would NOT be chase, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1287 "2012-03-23T01:39:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How does stopping to verify location to the police negate the fact that he continued (by admission) to pursue Martin. He’s on tape saying he can’t believe the kid’s getting away. Getting away from what? Your timeline is completely hosed. He says right at the beginning that they always get away. > [@](#): > > what it boils down to is that he instigated a confrontation where someone dies. How do you know he instigated the confrontation? He says he simply followed Martin. Perhaps you mean that action is confrontational. Perhaps it is, but it’s legal. The question is which of them crossed the line into illegal actions first. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1288 "2012-03-23T01:41:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nonetheless, the dispatcher does not say “chase.” and **monstro** said that the dispatcher said “chase.” > > By the same token, we could say “gunned down” or “shot.” Each is defensible. But if we’re ascribing quotes, let’s stick to what was said. > > And for whatever it’s worth, “follow” could mean “observe and report.” which would NOT be chase, right? If I was the prosecutor I would BEG the defense council to use this as a point of contention. The trial revolves around the unnecessary pursuit of Martin which appears to be driven by Zimmerman’s perceptions. At some point defense is going to present Zimmerman as a caring individual who only wanted to help his neighborhood and at that point I would be playing mental reruns of the Andy Griffith show to the jury. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1289 "2012-03-23T01:46:06Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Oh for god’s sake, Steophan, you bend any further backwards to find ways to make Zimmerman’'s actions acceptable and I swear you are going to sprain something. The fact that you disagree with me on an issue of the law, with your history, is the strongest evidence yet that I’m correct. I’m not bending anything, I’m straight up observing the facts, and any speculation I may make is nothing more than that. I’m going to repeat something I said earlier, though, as it may have been before you joined the thread. Zimmerman is entitled to a presumption of innocence. If there’s a reasonable interpretation of the facts that shows him to be innocent, regardless of what other interpretation may show, _he is innocent_. This is not a debate with two equal sides. The burden of proof lies solely with the side that claims he is guilty. This is not a thread about whether Zimmerman is a decent human being. This is not a thread about whether he is morally culpable for Martin’s death. This is not a thread about the fairness of Florida’s Stand Your Ground laws. It’s a thread asking whether he should be arrested and charged with a criminal offence related to the homicide of Martin. It’s not even a thread asking whether the police are _entitled_ to arrest him, although that’s a relevant side question, as it could still be a waste of time to do so even if they are. I’ll restate my personal belief on the issue, based on the evidence I’ve seen. Zimmerman probably committed manslaughter. The evidence is nowhere near secure enough to allow for a conviction. It would be a waste of everyone’s time to arrest him. I reserve the right to change my view as I see more evidence. One final belief - anyone who thinks he should be arrested even though he can’t be convicted is an idiot, and should be kept as far as possible away from making laws and policies of law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1290 "2012-03-23T01:46:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Asked and answered earlier in this thread, in a conversation between me and Arnold W. With speculation, which is what everyone is doing since there is no direct eye-witness and never will be, unless the police have one. And what is the harm? This is IMHO and nothing said here will ever have any bearing on anything in the real world. Some people don’t find Zimmermans story credible with what has been released so far. So what? It’s hard to construct a scenario that fits. Even Chief Lee thinks it is implausible that Zimmerman got out of his car to check a street sign. Bearing in mind that Zimmerman was seen on top of the dying Martin, how did they get to that site if he was jumped by Martin as he headed back to his car. Exactly where was Zimmerman standing his ground. Bottom line, the most logical scenario has Zimmerman following and attempting to restrain Martin. “These assholes, they always get away” has bearing. The girlfriend’s account has bearing. Zimmerman calling the cops whenever he saw black males he didn’t recognize, even if they were sitting in a car or chatting by the gate, has bearing. I don’t understand why some people get so shrilly about accepting Zimmermans version. Also, how can anyone say Zimmerman wasn’t doing anything wrong or that there wasn’t a threat? Martin didn’t know why this guy was following him. Who is he? A mugger? A serial killer? It is laughable to claim race wasnnt a factor either. Trayvon Martin is dead, in part, because of his color or maybe we’ll find out that Zimmerman called the cops whenever he saw a white kid walking home, talking on the phone to his girlfriend. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1291 "2012-03-23T01:55:06Z")
When the dispatcher tells him to stop following, Zimmerman continues but only from his truck. He hangs up the phone for some unknown reason. He finds himself at an intersection and gets out to see what the street names are (for some unknown reason). Between the time that he stops tailing Martin and then he gets out of his car, Martin is able to cross the distance between them and assault him from behind. Zimmerman is afraid for his life at this point. He runs over to a backyard, screaming for help, while Martin gives chase. The two tumble onto the yard and start fighting. Zimmerman manages to get on top of Martin (as described by a witness). Martin makes a menacing gesture like he has a gun, and that is when Zimmerman makes the split decision to shoot. You know what? I would buy all of this, if this is in fact what Zimmerman says happened in his statement. It would square with all of the known evidence (body found in yard where witnesses report seeing and hearing the fighting, as well as Zimmerman’s wounds). But I would think–and maybe this is just me–that the police would have readily released such a nice narrative at the first sign of impatience. Or at least by now. None of the descriptions of the statement I’ve read contain the details that I filled in. Zimmerman states that he felt afraid for his life when he was assaulted, next to his truck. There is no mention of him being chased into the yard–which you would think would be kind of in the forefront of your mind when relaying the story (I was so afraid that I just ran like a maniac, screaming “halp!”). There is no mention of Zimmerman being afraid for his life while the two scuffled in the yard–where Trayvon was shot according to witness statements (and supported by 911 recordings). The fear is placed in the context of the initial attack in the intersection. Not at the actual scene where the shooting occurred. I’m going to continue doubting Zimmerman until the police reveal the parts of Zimmerman’s statements taken on that night which would explain the questionable parts of his claim. THAT seems more reasonable than accepting his word when he has every reason in the world to lie, the police didn’t even bother giving him a sobriety check or gathering all the evidence at the crime scene (Martin’s cell phone), and witness accounts (including from Martin’s girlfriend) cast suspicion on his story. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1292 "2012-03-23T01:55:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Your timeline is completely hosed. He says right at the beginning that they always get away. How does that hose a timeline? All that admission does is give reason to his stupidity. The timeline in court is going to start with a time stamp of when Martin was at the 7-11 going about his business of buying CANDY. Then it proceeds to the 911 call by Zimmerman followed by a 911 call from a neighbor stating where the fight took place. The fight starts with Zimmerman getting in Martin’s face. That’s what the defense has to deal with. Martin’s girlfriend can testify as to what SHE said and her phone will play out a time frame. It’s all going to neatly stack up against Zimmerman that in a very short time frame he took it upon himself to stalk someone he thought to be a criminal and in the process of this unnecessary confrontation, shot him. > [@Bricker](#): > > How do you know he instigated the confrontation? He says he simply followed Martin. Perhaps you mean that action is confrontational. Perhaps it is, but it’s legal. The question is which of them crossed the line into illegal actions first. Martin was confronted with a man who admits to the police that “they always get away”. So yes, randomly confronting a stranger you think is burglarizing the neighborhood and shouldn’t get away is confrontational. It’s legal to be an asshole but it’s also the basis of starting a fight to which Zimmerman was kind enough to bring a gun to. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1293 "2012-03-23T01:56:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve said before here, and I’ll say again, following is not necessarily chasing. Evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin is not evidence of any threat, or any wrongdoing. The more I look at this statement, the more flabbergasted I am. Tell me, which is more threatening, a kid walking down the street doing absolutely nothing strange, unusual or threatening, (The best Zimmerman could do to make Martin sound like a threat was say he was “looking”, and had “something” in his hands. Of course, there’s the fact that the kid was black, and wearing a hoodie, but last time I checked that wasn’t threatening either.) or a guy in a car watching you intently and following you, (pick your pace, the key issues would be the following and staring). You’ve made it pretty clear you think that Zimmerman following Martin is NOT evidence of any threat. Ok. Can you explain what “evidence of threat” Martin was giving off that made Zimmerman’s benign stalking something that Martin should have felt okay about? > [@monstro](#): > > He’d already directed the police to meet him at another location, correct? No, and this is actually more evidence that Zimmerman had no intention of not pursuing Martin: he struggles with agreeing to a fixed meeting place with the police and finally backs out of giving one, getting the operator to agree to have the police contact him when they arrive so he can tell them **then** where he will be. Because of course he intends to continue to follow Martin so he doesn’t know where he will be by then. > [@Steophan](#): > > What bothers me greatly is that people are trying to twist the facts to make it look like an innocent person must have been killed, as though that is somehow better than the other. Care to clarify which facts you think are being twisted? Care to point to a shred of evidence anywhere that in any way whatsoever even hints at the idea that Martin was anything OTHER than completely innocent? > [@](#): > > **Not** that I consider death to be a just punishment for an assault, and the situation is tragic either way, but the death of a guilty person is the lesser of two evils. Why are you so determined that Martin must be the innocent party here? Because he is. Apart from the man who murdered him making a completely incredible claim that Martin attacked him, (and if he did, even the SYG authors think that Martin was on firmer ground attacking Zimmerman, his stalker, than Zimmerman was to attack Martin, who was doing nothing wrong at all.) nothing he did that day or any other day suggests that Martin was anything other than a perfectly normal, non-violent, innocent 17-year old boy. Remember presumption of innocence??? If we’re going to give that to someone standing trial, can’t you summon it up for a kid who was sentenced to death already?? > [@Magiver](#): > > because a walk to your father’s house after buying a bag of skittles shouldn’t involve a confrontation with Wyatt Earp? 😉 > [@monstro](#): > > That is what I’m hearing from you. That people are being unreasonable by weighing the known facts against Zimmerman’s claim and then making a judgment. > > That bullshit is what frustrates me the most about this thread. And it should. That’s all that a judge or jury ever does, really, since in any situation there are unknowns, even if it is simply the unknown of what is in people’s hearts. You look at the evidence and weigh it against your reasonable understanding of the world and how it works, and come up with the answer that makes the most sense. > [@Steophan](#): > > Weighing known facts against Zimmerman’s claim isn’t a problem. Making assumptions about what is _possible_ from those facts, weighing _those_ against Zimmerman’s claim, and deciding that he must be lying, and therefore must be guilty of murder, is a fucking big problem. I just hope none of the people doing it are involved in law enforcement at all. You better hope they are, that’s how it works. See the previous. > [@](#): > > It does give me some hope that all the people involved with the law in this thread don’t appear to be doing that. It gives you hope to see that the people involved (originally, anyway, the police) take at face value the statement of a man who has just killed someone and has every reason in the world to say whatever he needs to in order to keep from going to prison? Even though there is other evidence available, and the statements themselves don’t really make sense in light of physics, biology, and various other realities that make the statement made by the shooter something less than perfectly sensible? this gives you hope for what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1294 "2012-03-23T02:00:33Z")
There’s a reason why neighborhood watch programs dissuade members from carrying guns. This is it. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1295 "2012-03-23T02:07:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If **you with the face** is making stuff up now, apparently she isn’t the only one: > > Originally Posted by [http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/19/2703029/us-department-of-justice-fbi-and.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/19/2703029/us-department-of-justice-fbi-and.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life. > > Will someone please address **you’s** question? She asked very politely and non-snarkily. Her confusion is quite reasonable. I too would appreciate an answer from the detached, dispassionate voices here. As far as I can tell the Miami Herald quote is false. The other references to it I’ve found cite the Miami Herald. As far as I can recall George Zimmerman has made no public statements at all and the Sanford police didn’t report him saying anything like that. He did tell the 911 dispatcher that he was getting out of the car to check an address. If you want to assume everything you read in the newspaper is perfectly accurate, then you might like to address this quote from the Orlando Sentinel. [http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1716605.story](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1716605.story) > [@](#): > > It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt — Zimmerman — who was on the ground. > > The boy said he is not sure who called for help. After a moment, his dog escaped, and he turned to catch it and a few seconds later heard a gunshot, he said. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1296 "2012-03-23T02:12:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If **you with the face** is making stuff up now, apparently she isn’t the only one: > > Will someone please address **you’s** question? She asked very politely and non-snarkily. Her confusion is quite reasonable. I too would appreciate an answer from the detached, dispassionate voices here. Sure, let me ask a few questions: 1.Where is the full text of Zimmermans statement posted? Have you read it? 1. Have you read the Medical Examiner’s report? How about Zimmerman’s Doctor report? 2. Have you read the CSI investigators report? 3. Have you read the ballistics report? 4. What is the extent of Martin’s Juvie record? 5. What do Zimmermans phone records show? How about his emails? 6. What do Martin’s phone records show? Look, some people here have asked some interesting questions about what Zimmerman may or may not have said. All of those questions- and about a zillion more- will be asked at the Grand Jury hearing. Zimmerman wil likely be there. If so, he will HAVE to answer every question put to him. His lawyer may be there but Zimmerman can’t “take the 5th”, and Zimmermans attorney may not take part in the questioning nor present any evidence. Interesting things will come out. For example if Martin has a juvie record it may come up- but it is very doubtful his lawyer could get it admitted at the trial. WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THIS CASE, we know less than 1% of the evidence that the GJ will hear. And people here are clamoring for arrest and charges, when they obviously dont know the law- the DA can NOT charge Zimmerman with murder. The DA _must_ get a indictment from a GJ. So the answer to the question- why hasn;t the DA charged Zimmerman with murder? Because he \*can’t. \* Not “doesn’t want to”- \*\*can’t. \*\* Many dudes here are willing to lynch Zimmerman based upon hearing a 911 call and reading some biased news articles. _No one here knows the facts._ No one here has access to the ME, CSI, Ballistics and other reports. I agree- it doesn’t sound good for Zimmerman. But I don’t know the facts either. So the question asked above is meaningless, no matter how politely it was asked. The State is proceeding in this case exactly and precisely as Florida law and the US Constitution requires them to do. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1297 "2012-03-23T02:14:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > One must be crazy for thinking Zimmerman had a motive to shoot Martin (evidence on the 911 tape). One has to be irrational to think that Martin had no motive to kill Zimmerman beyond self-defense. That is what I’m hearing from you. That people are being unreasonable by weighing the known facts against Zimmerman’s claim and then making a judgment. > > That bullshit is what frustrates me the most about this thread. It would be tough to prove motive that Zimmerman intended to murder Martin. I think it would be easy to show that he instigated a fight knowing he could back it up with a gun. If the defense truly wants to use Zimmerman’s own words that he thought Martin may be armed then Zimmerman’s assumed level of rational thinking goes way down. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1298 "2012-03-23T02:15:25Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > As far as I can tell the Miami Herald quote is false. The other references to it I’ve found cite the Miami Herald. As far as I can recall George Zimmerman has made no public statements at all and the Sanford police didn’t report him saying anything like that. I don’t know if its\* false, \*but I do know that the Police have not released Zimmerman’s statement yet. Nor the ME’s report, etc. Thus it’s very suspect. Mind you every good newspaper has PD leads, and someone might have leaked something. But even if so, it’s clearly out of context. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1299 "2012-03-23T02:21:58Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > You’ve made it pretty clear you think that Zimmerman following Martin is NOT evidence of any threat. I’ve stated it outright. > [@](#): > > Ok. Can you explain what “evidence of threat” Martin was giving off that made Zimmerman’s benign stalking something that Martin should have felt okay about? No. There’s no reason to. Unless you are suggesting that someone walking towards you and asking why you are there is _automatically_ a threat to life and limb, and I hope you’re not, as that would be proof of idiocy and/or insanity. > [@](#): > > Because he is. Apart from the man who murdered him making a completely incredible claim that Martin attacked him, (and if he did, even the SYG authors think that Martin was on firmer ground attacking Zimmerman, his stalker, than Zimmerman was to attack Martin, who was doing nothing wrong at all.) nothing he did that day or any other day suggests that Martin was anything other than a perfectly normal, non-violent, innocent 17-year old boy. Remember presumption of innocence??? If we’re going to give that to someone standing trial, can’t you summon it up for a kid who was sentenced to death already?? How is the claim of someone with facial injuries that the only person nearby attacked them “completely incredible”? It’s entirely credible. I didn’t actually think anyone seriously doubted that Martin punched Zimmerman at some point, although as you seem to there’s a perfect example of the fact-twisting I was referring to. Also, spare me the rhetoric about Martin being “sentenced to death” or presumed guilty. It’s untrue, irrelevant posturing from someone who understands nothing about the law. > [@](#): > > t gives you hope to see that the people involved (originally, anyway, the police) take at face value the statement of a man who has just killed someone and has every reason in the world to say whatever he needs to in order to keep from going to prison? Even though there is other evidence available, and the statements themselves don’t really make sense in light of physics, biology, and various other realities that make the statement made by the shooter something less than perfectly sensible? this gives you hope for what, exactly? I would expect them to evaluate the statement in conjunction with the other evidence, and, if it fits, let him go. But yes, I would expect them to take his statement at face value unless the other evidence contradicts it. I’m far from convinced that it does even to the level of probable cause, and certain it doesn’t to the point of reasonable doubt (based on the evidence I’ve seen, which is _not_ the totality of the evidence). I’ll repeat this slowly, to see if it will sink in. You. Have. To. Presume. Him. Innocent. I’m really not sure how I can explain that further, it seems to me entirely self-evident. As an aside, I’m quite amused by your reference to “various other realities”, as I’m becoming more and more convinced you exist in one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1300 "2012-03-23T02:32:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, let me ask a few questions: > > 1.Where is the full text of Zimmermans statement posted? Have you read it? > > 1. Have you read the Medical Examiner’s report? How about Zimmerman’s Doctor report? > > 2. Have you read the CSI investigators report? > > 3. Have you read the ballistics report? > > 4. What is the extent of Martin’s Juvie record? > > 5. What do Zimmermans phone records show? How about his emails? > > 6. What do Martin’s phone records show? > > Look, some people here have asked some interesting questions about what Zimmerman may or may not have said. All of those questions- and about a zillion more- will be asked at the Grand Jury hearing. Zimmerman wil likely be there. If so, he will HAVE to answer every question put to him. His lawyer may be there but Zimmerman can’t “take the 5th”, and Zimmermans attorney may not take part in the questioning nor present any evidence. > > Interesting things will come out. For example if Martin has a juvie record it may come up- but it is very doubtful his lawyer could get it admitted at the trial. > > WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THIS CASE, we know less than 1% of the evidence that the GJ will hear. > > And people here are clamoring for arrest and charges, when they obviously dont know the law- the DA can NOT charge Zimmerman with murder. The DA _must_ get a indictment from a GJ. So the answer to the question- why hasn;t the DA charged Zimmerman with murder? Because he \*can’t. \* Not “doesn’t want to”- \*\*can’t. \*\* > > Many dudes here are willing to lynch Zimmerman based upon hearing a 911 call and reading some biased news articles. _No one here knows the facts._ No one here has access to the ME, CSI, Ballistics and other reports. I agree- it doesn’t sound good for Zimmerman. But I don’t know the facts either. > > So the question asked above is meaningless, no matter how politely it was asked. The State is proceeding in this case exactly and precisely as Florida law and the US Constitution requires them to do. Nice post. Unfortunately, no one will listen or heed it, and we’ll go on for another 5 pages at least in this thread, and someone will start another thread like this the next time a situation like this comes up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=64) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=66)