# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 67
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1321 "2012-03-23T03:43:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, let me ask a few questions: > > 1.Where is the full text of Zimmermans statement posted? Have you read it? > > 1. Have you read the Medical Examiner’s report? How about Zimmerman’s Doctor report? > > 2. Have you read the CSI investigators report? > > 3. Have you read the ballistics report? > > 4. What is the extent of Martin’s Juvie record? > > 5. What do Zimmermans phone records show? How about his emails? > > 6. What do Martin’s phone records show? Question 5 is not particularly relevant. > [@](#): > > Look, some people here have asked some interesting questions about what Zimmerman may or may not have said. All of those questions- and about a zillion more- will be asked at the Grand Jury hearing. Zimmerman wil likely be there. If so, he will HAVE to answer every question put to him. His lawyer may be there but Zimmerman can’t “take the 5th”, and Zimmermans attorney may not take part in the questioning nor present any evidence. This is not correct. Zimmerman is absolutely entitled to take the Fifth if the grand jury calls him, unless he gets use immunity either by law or by arrangement. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1322 "2012-03-23T03:45:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It wouldn’t have the context of a lawful order to stand down but I prefaced my statement accurately. He was asked not to pursue. He chose to ignore that request and instead acted of his own accord and thus bypassing the very police whom he called. I’ve been where Zimmerman was except I’ve actually witnessed crimes in progress. At no time did I confront the criminal. Some got caught, some got away. All of them lived. Everybody has a Walter Mitty side to them. Zimmerman acted it out. > > No, it’s not just to protect the people who are calling. It’s to protect everybody within shooting distance. That includes the person calling, the person they’re involved with, innocent by-standers, and the police who are responding. > > The case against Zimmerman is negligence through poor judgement. A lot of people including the investigating police have stated many times that whatever a 911 dispatcher tells you to do has virtually no legal weight; I even doubt it would have much weight at trial unless you think you could convince 12 people that just because they dial 911 they have to follow the directions of that dispatcher to a tee, even if they hear a criminal raping their young daughter in the next room. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1323 "2012-03-23T03:46:54Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > If you want to assume everything you read in the newspaper is perfectly accurate, then you might like to address this quote from the Orlando Sentinel. > [http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1716605.story](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1716605.story) > > > [@](#): > > > > It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt — Zimmerman — who was on the ground. > > > > The boy said he is not sure who called for help. After a moment, his dog escaped, and he turned to catch it and a few seconds later heard a gunshot, he said. I actually found an interview with the kid mentioned here: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/17/trayvon-martin-killing-yo\_n\_1355795.html](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/17/trayvon-martin-killing-yo_n_1355795.html) What is interesting is that the Huffington Post doesn’t address the Sentinel’s statement that the person lying on the ground was Zimmerman. They seem to be giving the strong impression that it was Martin lying on the ground. This pretty important, since it looks like Austin McLendon is the closest thing we have to an eye witness. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1324 "2012-03-23T03:47:32Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > As has been the case from the very first page, some people believe a news article’s interpretation of things, or random quotes from a police officer reprinted in a news article are the same as actually having the statement Zimmerman made to police in his interview. Forgive us for absorbing only what’s on the radiograms, teebee machines, and interwabs. Seriously, if the police know more than what is being revealed, dontcha think it would be wise on their part to show more of their hand? Especially with the chief catching flack and people accusing them of being inept? Especially since they are already on record saying that they believe Zimmerman’s story and that they do not have cause to arrest him? And if Zimmerman’s claim is not consistent with the way it is being reported in the papers, shouldn’t someone correct the errors before they get promulgated any further? I’m really trying to keep my tone from sounding “shrill”. But it seems like whatever I say, my questions are portrayed as unreasonable attacks instead of attempts to understand the facts we have on the table. And we _do_ have facts. This is not the black box of unknowable mysteriousness that some posters are painting this situation out to be. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1325 "2012-03-23T03:49:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, the police rejected it when they made the decision not to arrest him. But you knew that was what I meant. > > Or are you claiming that the police are not reasonable people? It’s not up to the police in this case to accept or reject anything. It’s up to a Grand Jury. In the context of an immediate arrest by police Zimmerman wasn’t considered a suspect in a premeditated murder case nor did he pose any threat. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1326 "2012-03-23T03:49:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I still have no idea why you think they had a right to take his blood, given they were of the opinion that they couldn’t arrest him Sure;y the police can conduct searchez and seizures to further their investigation when they find a man standing over a dead body holding the smoking gun? That’s not probable cause to conduct a search? I mean, I understand there’s self-defense law at play here, but surely the cops can conduct some sort of investigation? You can’t avoid a reasonable search just by saying “self defense,” can you? Are the police not entitled to investigate the claim? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1327 "2012-03-23T03:50:22Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Really? I mean, _really_? It has already been established that Martin was unarmed and coming back from a convenience store, i.e. doing nothing wrong prior to Zimmerman’s engagement with him. Why would his (AFAWK nonexistent) juvie record be relevant? Note that Zimmerman’s battery charge and domestic abuse complaint are irrelevant, though. Some in this thread have asserted that Zimmerman can’t be tried because what he did was legal, and yet those two wacky liberals, Dennis Baxley and Durell Peadon (co-authors of Floridas Stand Your Ground law) don’t believe Zimmerman can claim self-defense under SYG. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1328 "2012-03-23T03:52:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The case against Zimmerman is negligence through poor judgement. And is that a crime? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1329 "2012-03-23T03:54:43Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Forgive us for absorbing only what’s on the radiograms, teebee machines, and interwabs. > > Seriously, if the police know more than what is being revealed, dontcha think it would be wise on their part to show more of their hand? Especially with the chief catching flack and people accusing them of being inept? Especially since they are already on record saying that they believe Zimmerman’s story and that they do not have cause to arrest him? And if Zimmerman’s claim is not consistent with the way it is being reported in the papers, shouldn’t someone correct the errors before they get promulgated any further? > > I’m really trying to keep my tone from sounding “shrill”. But it seems like whatever I say, my questions are portrayed as unreasonable attacks instead of attempts to understand the facts we have on the table. And we _do_ have facts. This is not the black box of unknowable mysteriousness that some posters are painting this situation out to be. To go back to an earlier point I made, I think the PR has been bungled and the police answered too many questions. That’s how we got where we are now. Basically the police started to get some heat because they had not made an arrest and they weren’t saying much about it. So they start releasing information, this information is more incendiary than just being quiet. From a PR perspective I don’t think the information release was a good move. I think **if** they have compelling evidence that would support Zimmerman’s story **Bricker** has brought up very good points as to why they should not release it. I think all the police have hurt through their foolishness in the handling of the PR is the reputation of their department and the career of the police chief. If they release even more material information on the case, they could actually create a scenario like **Bricker** mentioned where, if Zimmerman was lying, they have removed opportunities to catch him in his lies, which would be strong evidence against him in a trial. So I think the police need to boil in the pot for awhile, no matter how angry people get. This is a high profile case, so I think if no charges end up being filed they should do a big data dump on the public. I don’t see a compelling reason to put proper police procedure and the investigation itself at risk just to allay people’s concerns. If there is some opportunity to demonstrate Zimmerman’s guilt, that is destroyed by doing something like releasing a transcript of his statement, do you think Martin’s parents will be happy that their son’s killer never gets convicted? I think they’d be happier if the police were able to catch Zimmerman in a lie and end up seeing him convicted than the will be just because the police decide to give them more information to make them feel better. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1330 "2012-03-23T03:56:53Z")
Oh, one more point. If they arrest, charge, and try him early, and he’s found not guilty that’s pretty much it. If they wait for enough evidence to make a strong case there is more chance of a guilty verdict. Waiting for more evidence does not mean that I’m hoping he’s factually innocent (although I stand by my statement earlier that his factual innocence would probably be the least worst scenario), so much as I’m hoping for the most correct outcome of the case. As far as the police releasing more evidence, I’d say absolutely not. I think the biggest problem is that they’ve released too much already. Releasing more runs the risk of hampering the investigation, and any potential trial. I consider that more important than the desire of random people on the internet (myself included) to know. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1331 "2012-03-23T03:57:08Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sure;y the police can conduct searchez and seizures to further their investigation when they find a man standing over a dead body holding the smoking gun? That’s not probable cause to conduct a search? > > I mean, I understand there’s self-defense law at play here, but surely the cops can conduct some sort of investigation? You can’t avoid a reasonable search just by saying “self defense,” can you? Are the police not entitled to investigate the claim? I think **Bricker** is probably as close to a board expert (in fact not close to, but in fact is an expert) on this as we’ll find (having been involved in criminal law), so I’d defer to him but I don’t know of many scenarios offhand where police can just forcibly do a blood draw. While some States criminalize the refusal, even in DUI homicide cases I don’t believe they can actually take breath or blood samples without consent. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1332 "2012-03-23T03:57:32Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Note that Zimmerman’s battery charge and domestic abuse complaint are irrelevant, though. > > Some in this thread have asserted that Zimmerman can’t be tried because what he did was legal, and yet those two wacky liberals, Dennis Baxley and Durell Peadon (co-authors of Floridas Stand Your Ground law) don’t believe Zimmerman can claim self-defense under SYG. Of course. Because they stand to take a political hit otherwise. Neither Baxley nor Peadon have any more idea of the factual circumstances than anyone else here. Baxley is not even a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1333 "2012-03-23T03:57:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Forgive us for absorbing only what’s on the radiograms, teebee machines, and interwabs. > > Seriously, if the police know more than what is being revealed, dontcha think it would be wise on their part to show more of their hand? Oh God no. Revealing information on a potential trial is the worst thing they can do for the success of the case. If you’re asking could they do a better job explaining the situation then yes. Unfortunately, police are people too. Public relations skills are part art form and part training. What you get out of a city the size of NY is not the same as a small town. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1334 "2012-03-23T03:59:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is not correct. Zimmerman is absolutely entitled to take the Fifth if the grand jury calls him, unless he gets use immunity either by law or by arrangement. Well, yes, sorry. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1335 "2012-03-23T04:01:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course. Because they stand to take a political hit otherwise. > > Neither Baxley nor Peadon have any more idea of the factual circumstances than anyone else here. > > Baxley is not even a lawyer. Right. All they did was get a quick poll, poll sez PO is running against their pet law because of Zimmerman, so they say Zimmerman isn;t covered under it. Which they can’t know as they haven’t seen/heard the evidence either. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1336 "2012-03-23T04:04:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Oh, one more point. If they arrest, charge, and try him early, and he’s found not guilty that’s pretty much it. If they wait for enough evidence to make a strong case there is more chance of a guilty verdict. Waiting for more evidence does not mean that I’m hoping he’s factually innocent (although I stand by my statement earlier that his factual innocence would probably be the least worst scenario), so much as I’m hoping for the most correct outcome of the case. > > As far as the police releasing more evidence, I’d say absolutely not. I think the biggest problem is that they’ve released too much already. Releasing more runs the risk of hampering the investigation, and any potential trial. I consider that more important than the desire of random people on the internet (myself included) to know. Exactly. The more they release the better Zimmermans chances get. If you all want Zimmerman convicted the best thing to do is let the GJ do their job. Those dudes organizing the “million hoodie march” are helping Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1337 "2012-03-23T04:04:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Right. All they did was get a quick poll, poll sez PO is running against their pet law because of Zimmerman, so they say Zimmerman isn;t covered under it. Which they can’t know as they haven’t seen/heard the evidence either. History realistically shows that people who sponsor legislation aren’t really experts on how a court should properly apply that legislation. Politicians often won’t understand the legal ramifications of specific wording in their statutes, if they were perfect at this we wouldn’t have so many laws getting turned upside down by courts and sponsors of those legislative acts coming out against their own laws (which happens often enough at State and Federal levels to not be a remarkable thing.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1338 "2012-03-23T04:05:39Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think **Bricker** is probably as close to a board expert (in fact not close to, but in fact is an expert) on this as we’ll find (having been involved in criminal law), so I’d defer to him but I don’t know of many scenarios offhand where police can just forcibly do a blood draw. > > While some States criminalize the refusal, even in DUI homicide cases I don’t believe they can actually take breath or blood samples without consent. Can’t they force the sample by a warrant? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1339 "2012-03-23T04:07:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And is that a crime? From my limited law classes I would say yes. The prosecutor would have to prove he created a situation based on poor judgement that led to Martin’s death. Martin’s girlfriend can testify that she advised him to get away from Zimmerman and by all accounts, including Zimmerman’s, it appears that was the case. From a jury’s perspective, Zimmerman is going to look like a stalker to Martin and he tried to evade him. On the flip side, Zimmerman shows himself to project (in his own mind) that Martin is messed up and possibly armed. He chose to pursue him. Martin’s actions are reasoned, Zimmerman’s were not. One of them is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1340 "2012-03-23T04:12:30Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sure;y the police can conduct searchez and seizures to further their investigation when they find a man standing over a dead body holding the smoking gun? That’s not probable cause to conduct a search? > > I mean, I understand there’s self-defense law at play here, but surely the cops can conduct some sort of investigation? You can’t avoid a reasonable search just by saying “self defense,” can you? Are the police not entitled to investigate the claim? They certainly have the right to pat him down for weapons. But the intrusiveness of a blood test requires a court order, or consent. There is an implied consent law for drivers, but even that must be based on probable cause to believe the accused was operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated. And even then, the driver may refuse, suffering the automatic suspension of his license as a penalty. A needle in the arm cannot generally be done absent consent or a court order. Someone above made the comment that Martin was tested. A moment’s thought will reveal the difference between the cases and why Martin’s body could be tested without offending the Fourth Amendment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=66) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=68)