# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 68
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1341 "2012-03-23T04:15:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > From my limited law classes I would say yes. The prosecutor would have to prove he created a situation based on poor judgement that led to Martin’s death. > > Martin’s girlfriend can testify that she advised him to get away from Zimmerman and by all accounts, including Zimmerman’s, it appears that was the case. From a jury’s perspective, Zimmerman is going to look like a stalker to Martin and he tried to evade him. On the flip side, Zimmerman shows himself to project (in his own mind) that Martin is messed up and possibly armed. He chose to pursue him. > > Martin’s actions are reasoned, Zimmerman’s were not. One of them is dead. Why do you suppose that in all the press discussion of this case, you can’t find any legal expert – even those urging Zimmerman’s prosecution – advancing this “poor judgment” theory of crime? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1342 "2012-03-23T04:16:02Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > A lot of people including the investigating police have stated many times that whatever a 911 dispatcher tells you to do has virtually no legal weight; I even doubt it would have much weight at trial unless you think you could convince 12 people that just because they dial 911 they have to follow the directions of that dispatcher to a tee, even if they hear a criminal raping their young daughter in the next room. I’m not making a case that it was any kind of lawful instruction. It simply points out a request made by the police. It’s along the same lines of an electrician telling a customer not to play with the wires while he’s en-route to the customer. It illustrates that Zimmerman chose to ignore common sense. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1343 "2012-03-23T04:18:19Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > While some States criminalize the refusal, even in DUI homicide cases I don’t believe they can actually take breath or blood samples without consent. Really? There are places where I can mow down people with my car and I don’t have to prove I’m not intoxicated? Can I refuse to do a sobriety test too or does this just extend to more “intrusive” measures? If the answer to any of the above is “yes”, then I’m dumbfounded yet again. If they had taken Zimmerman’s blood and the alcohol content had been high enough to suspect he was drunk at the time of the shooting, how would this play out as far as his claim goes? He could have still felt he was in danger of his life; being buzzed shouldn’t prevent someone from defending themselves. But public intoxication is a crime (as is drinking and driving), and a drunk’s perception of events is always questionable. Do you think the police messed up by not covering this base? Because I sure feel like it was a huge fuck-up…_especially_ in a PR sense. The victim’s blood is being tested for every drug known to man. If something bad were to show up, it could be used to show Zimmerman was right to be afraid because Martin was indeed a drugged-up punk. But we will never be able to say the converse. Hell yeah, that is infuriating. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1344 "2012-03-23T04:18:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Can’t they force the sample by a warrant? Yes. But an application for a warrant must be supported by our old friend _probable cause_. So what do you say in your affidavit to the judge that shows probable cause to believe that a blood sample from Zimmerman will reveal the fruits of a crime? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1345 "2012-03-23T04:19:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why do you suppose that in all the press discussion of this case, you can’t find any legal expert – even those urging Zimmerman’s prosecution – advancing this “poor judgment” theory of crime? Seriously, the press. :dubious: you’re making a point based on commentator lawyers. Do you remember the LaCross Student fiasco in the press. In fact, I’d go so far as to say news agencies are the absolute worst sources of legitimate information regarding ANY subject. Headlines first, retractions on the back page… maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1346 "2012-03-23T04:27:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. But an application for a warrant must be supported by our old friend _probable cause_. > > So what do you say in your affidavit to the judge that shows probable cause to believe that a blood sample from Zimmerman will reveal the fruits of a crime? suspect was acting irrationally. His statement was disorganized, he was twitchy … Lots of flexibility here and the beauty of it is it’s the word of a cop against some who just SHOT someone. I think a judge would bite on it. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1347 "2012-03-23T04:28:53Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Really? There are places where I can mow down people with my car and I don’t have to prove I’m not intoxicated? Can I refuse to do a sobriety test too or does this just extend to more “intrusive” measures? > > If the answer to any of the above is “yes”, then I’m dumbfounded yet again. > > If they had taken Zimmerman’s blood and the alcohol content had been high enough to suspect he was drunk at the time of the shooting, how would this play out as far as his claim goes? He could have still felt he was in danger of his life; being buzzed shouldn’t prevent someone from defending themselves. But public intoxication is a crime (as is drinking and driving), and a drunk’s perception of events is always questionable. > > Do you think the police messed up by not covering this base? Because I sure feel like it was a huge fuck-up…_especially_ in a PR sense. The victim’s blood is being tested for every drug known to man. If something bad were to show up, it could be used to show Zimmerman was right to be afraid because Martin was indeed a drugged-up punk. But we will never be able to say the converse. Hell yeah, that is infuriating. Until I hear definitively I’d say the law is variable on this. [Here](http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2011/may/30/DUI-drunken-driving-bill-blood-draw-tennessee/?print=1) is an article about Tennessee law, which notes that up until 2009 you could simply refuse any request for a blood, breath or other submission of physical evidence to police and you could certainly refuse a field sobriety test in DUI homicide cases. In 2009 Tennessee passed a law that allowed police to get the blood draw forcibly, but I imagine that involves a warrant. Since Tennessee’s law is c. 2009 I’m going to presume at least some of the 49 other States still have laws like Tennessee’s were prior to 2009. Wisconsin would be a good candidate since they were the last State to make first offense DUI a criminal (instead of civil traffic) violation. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1348 "2012-03-23T04:29:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Right. All they did was get a quick poll, poll sez PO is running against their pet law because of Zimmerman, so they say Zimmerman isn;t covered under it. Which they can’t know as they haven’t seen/heard the evidence either. Give me a break. Suddenly, these conservative republicans who wrote a law that the NRA backed, have lost their spines? One from a safe seat and one retired? It couldn’t be possible that they have come to their opinions honestly? That is some frantic spinning. Peaden is a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1349 "2012-03-23T04:37:11Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Really? There are places where I can mow down people with my car and I don’t have to prove I’m not intoxicated? Can I refuse to do a sobriety test too or does this just extend to more “intrusive” measures? > > If the answer to any of the above is “yes”, then I’m dumbfounded yet again. In my career, I have typed the phrase “probable cause” tens of thousands of times. This thread is increasing my average dramatically. Yes. Even if you mow down people with your car, that alone is insufficient. The arresting officer would have to have probable cause to believe you were intoxicated. He would have to be able to point to something — odor of alcohol on your breath, unsteady on feet, slurring of words, SOMETHING to support his saying that you were probably drunk. A field sobriety test must typically be based on at least reasonable suspicion, a standard less than probable cause but greater than an unpaticularized inchoate hunch. > [@](#): > > If they had taken Zimmerman’s blood and the alcohol content had been high enough to suspect he was drunk at the time of the shooting, how would this play out as far as his claim goes? He could have still felt he was in danger of his life; being buzzed shouldn’t prevent someone from defending themselves. But public intoxication is a crime (as is drinking and driving), and a drunk’s perception of events is always questionable. I think it would damage his claim dramatically. We already have excellent reason to think Zimmerman’s perception of Martin was wrong. To learn that his cognition was vitiated by voluntary intoxication would hurt. > [@](#): > > Do you think the police messed up by not covering this base? Because I sure feel like it was a huge fuck-up…_especially_ in a PR sense. The victim’s blood is being tested for every drug known to man. If something bad were to show up, it could be used to show Zimmerman was right to be afraid because Martin was indeed a drugged-up punk. But we will never be able to say the converse. Hell yeah, that is infuriating. I don’t know. If Zimmerman was asked to submit to a test but refused, and the police lacked probable cause, then doing the test anyway would have been very bad for an eventual prosecution. If they never even floated the idea, then I’d say thy messed up. See what I mean? Without the detail of what happened, it is impossible to reach any kind of informed conclusion. This could be the result of a savvy shooter who knew and exercised his rights, or could be a complacent and credulous police department who failed to properly handle the event. Until we get the complete package, I have no idea which it is. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1350 "2012-03-23T04:38:16Z")
Quick question: how far from the wild world of CSI are we in a case like this? What I mean is, obviously investigators have access to the gun that shot Martin, as well as his body. Will they be able to get a decent idea of the angle and distance from which he was shot? Is there a potential to find the bullet (if it went through him)? This seems like a case where physical evidence could be _extremely_ illuminating. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1351 "2012-03-23T04:40:01Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Give me a break. Suddenly, these conservative republicans who wrote a law that the NRA backed, have lost their spines? One from a safe seat and one retired? It couldn’t be possible that they have come to their opinions honestly? That is some frantic spinning. > > Peaden is a lawyer. on the face of it there is certainly the stink of election year politics but note who backed the bill. The NRA exists as a large block of voters friendly to the Republican Party. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1352 "2012-03-23T04:42:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > suspect was acting irrationally. His statement was disorganized, he was twitchy … Lots of flexibility here and the beauty of it is it’s the word of a cop against some who just SHOT someone. I think a judge would bite on it. Oh, of course that’s true. The cop could certainly lie and never get called on it. Under these circumstances, the cop’s claim would never get questioned. Is that what you’re saying the cops should have done? Or are you saying that in fact he was twitchy and disorganized in a way that made the questioning officer believe he was under the influence? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1353 "2012-03-23T04:45:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Seriously, the press. :dubious: you’re making a point based on commentator lawyers. Do you remember the LaCross Student fiasco in the press. In fact, I’d go so far as to say news agencies are the absolute worst sources of legitimate information regarding ANY subject. Headlines first, retractions on the back page… maybe. Ok, let me put it another way: what is the specific Florida law that criminalizes poor judgment that results in a death when the shooter can claim self defense? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1354 "2012-03-23T05:08:05Z")
So the next obvious question is… Does the Stand Your Ground law (or just the law in general) give any preference to 1) who starts a fight or 2) who has the superior firepower? Because, once two people are in a fight, they both have a legitimate claim to fear for their life and need to defend it. But without reference to those two criteria, you could say that any fight that ends in death is non culpable. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1355 "2012-03-23T05:16:53Z")
The exact wording is in this thread somewhere. To paraphrase, the instigator must attemt any and all means of retreat or escape before using deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1356 "2012-03-23T05:33:39Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > The exact wording is in this thread somewhere. To paraphrase, the instigator must attemt any and all means of retreat or escape before using deadly force. I know that’s true in other states but it seems to be at odds with the “stand your ground” phrasing. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1357 "2012-03-23T06:21:36Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I know that’s true in other states but it seems to be at odds with the “stand your ground” phrasing. This the the relevant statute if one is the agressor: > **[Chapter 776 Section 041 - 2010 Florida Statutes - The Florida Senate](https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2010/776.041)** Under Florida’s SYG, a non-agressor has no duty to retreat or escape. It’s like a Castle Doctrine that follows you wherever you go. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1358 "2012-03-23T06:48:02Z")
What’s with all the “No one knows! We don’t have all the facts!” So? All we’re doing is discussing it. And we’re discussing it based on the information we have so far, which is far from nothing. Being able to hear all the 911 calls, particularly Zimmerman’s is a lot of information. And forming opinons based on what we’ve got so far. Coming in to bitch that it’s ridiculous to talk about is in itself ridiculous: this is a message board. This is a sub-board labeled In My Humble Opinion. Discussing things and forming opinions and debating about what it all means is what we’re here to do, so it’s really silly to complain that we’re doing what we do. Now, if we were a jury empowered to decide Zimmerman’s fate? Well, then it would be completely fucked up. But we’re not, so you can give it a rest now. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1359 "2012-03-23T07:19:40Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Assuming we knew NOTHING else, (but we do) the plausibility of #2 is pretty shaky simply because there would be some blood evidence between Spot Y (Presumably somewhere near Zimmerman’s truck where he got out to look at the street sign and was jumped and attacked with Skittles and ice tea) and Spot X, where Martin fell. Unless that hoodie was made of ShamWOW!, it’s hard to believe not a drop of blood between Y and X would have fallen, showing that Martin was shot somewhere other than where he was found. Hell, I nick myself shaving and there’s blood everywhere I turn, a gunshot to the chest is going to be a gusher. I am going to assume you have little experience with gunshot wounds outside the realm of TV and the movies. Assuming massive external blood loss from the point of initial wounding to the point of expiration for all fatal GSW’s is an image created by Hollywood. Certainly some fatal GSW’s follow that pattern and are the most dramatic. However, in reality external blood loss can range from near none for a GSW in the abdomen or chest to a gusher that you have described from a GSW to the head or an outlying artery. A GSW to the chest that destroys the heart and all or a portion of the lungs yet does not produce an exit wound may simply not bleed enough out the entry wound to overwhelm the absorptive properties of the victims clothing. Remember the hoody. Even with such a traumatic wound incapacitation is seldom immediate, and the victim would be capable of traveling many feet or yards before expiring. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1360 "2012-03-23T07:40:24Z")
We get the Florida feed for our cable which means we can see local news there and I surprised no one has mentioned yet some of the developments that totally dominated local news yesterday(03/22/12). For one the police chief in charge where the incident happened has suddenly resigned. Thousands marched in protest and then a speech was given by Al Sharpton to the crowd. The high school were Martin attended had a massive walkout in protest organized through twitter, several other high schools in the state also had walkouts in protest. Thankfully it looks like the case won’t be forgotten and public outrage will force something to happen, it has already forced the resignation of the police chief. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=67) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=69)