# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 73
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1441 "2012-03-23T20:36:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Don’t bother. Stoid is impervious to facts she doesn’t like. You know Bricker, I am really starting to appreciate you more after this thread. You have been a real voice of reason, and have been quite nice to me when I made some layman’s errors. Thanks for both. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1442 "2012-03-23T20:38:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If people can suspend judgment on the claim that Zimmerman had chased Martin by foot as evidenced by the sounds on the 911 call… Who specifically has claimed otherwise? Some have repeated what Zimmerman stated with regard to leaving the vehicle. I don’t think anyone has suggested that it is impossible that Zimmerman followed Martin on foot. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1443 "2012-03-23T20:39:18Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Er, don’t you mean “did Zimmerman possess a depraved mind”? Obviously the “imminently dangerous act” was the gunshot, so it’s the other clause that’s in question. IF the gunshot was lawful, as in self defense, it negates it, as the statute calls for the UNlawful killing. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1444 "2012-03-23T20:40:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > True. Except that you have seen maybe 1% of the evidence. Have you read Zimmerman’s statement? The ballistics report? The Medical Examiners report? The CSI report? (none of these are available, mind you, so the answer is no.) Well to be honest I have not seen any of the evidence, unless a picture of the shooter and the victim count. But some facts are no in dispute by anyone, the most obvious is that Zimmerman shot Martin with his gun. So I am not sure what you expect to come out of a ballistics report or CSI. We also know that Zimmerman claims he was acting in self-defense, not in dispute. We know where he was shot. I would say we know considerably more than 1% of the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1445 "2012-03-23T20:41:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Don’t bother. Stoid is impervious to facts she doesn’t like. The wiki is a little unclear. It says: “The police took Trayvon Martin’s body and stored it in a morgue for three days, calling him John Doe.” Then later says the father filed the report etc. the next morning. I suspect it’s just poorly worded. In any case, it’s strange that the appears to be no attempt to see if anyone knew the boy. Stranger yet, wouldn’t Martin’s parents see the kerfluffle outside and investigate, especially after he didn’t return? Maybe he was home alone at the time? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1446 "2012-03-23T20:44:51Z")
> [@newme](#): > > I was wrong about it being with ABC. The interview I saw with the 13 year old was with the [Orlando Sentinel.](http://www.loop21.com/life/trayvon-martin-witness-fears-his-own-life) > > He never says they were separated in that interview. Listen to the interview more carefully. Austin McClendon never said that the person he saw on the ground initially was Martin and he never said he saw two people on the ground. You need to separate what McClendon actually said from what Maurice Garland wrote. The most interesting part was where McClendon talked about how dark it was. It would tend to cast some doubt about whether the other witness “John” could tell a red shirt from a gray shirt. I checked and sunset would have been at 6:24 in Sanford that night. I’ll have to check how dark it is in my backyard at 36 minutes after sunset. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1447 "2012-03-23T20:46:28Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > (And for the hell of it I’d actually throw in the argument that the mere act of carrying a loaded gun in public qualifies as reckless disregard, but of course that’s just asking for a big ol’ gun thread…) Again replying only to address a point that other readers might miss, and not to initiate a further debate with you, Stoid. I absolutely think Stoid and others believe this point, which is what makes them so sure this is depraved mind / reckless conduct / etc. But since Florida law allows people to carry loaded guns in public, as a matter of law, it can’t be _per se_ depraved mind / reckless conduct to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1448 "2012-03-23T20:47:35Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > IF the gunshot was lawful, as in self defense, it negates it, as the statute calls for the UNlawful killing. So a lawful act cannot be _per se_ imminently dangerous? If I’m reading that statute right, if it is a lawful self-defense killing, we don’t even have to get to the part determining whether the act was imminently dangerous. I don’t think it _means_ it’s not imminently dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1449 "2012-03-23T20:49:24Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > it is unclear who had the “upper hand” but Zimmerman at some point shot Martin. Evidence (witnesses and wounds to Zimmerman) suggest that Martin had the “upper hand”.\* \*I have not seen reports that there were other wounds to Martin beyond the GSW. If it turns out there are then who had the “upper hand” becomes less evident, but there are still witness accounts that mostly agree that Martin was on top of Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1450 "2012-03-23T20:50:40Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Who specifically has claimed otherwise? Some have repeated what Zimmerman stated with regard to leaving the vehicle. I don’t think anyone has suggested that it is impossible that Zimmerman followed Martin on foot. I distinctly remember rolling my eyes while reading this thread when certain posters rejected the 911 tape as proof of Zimmerman doing any chasing. Those sounds that sound like movement? That could be anything. And “chase” is not the same thing as “follow”, as **Bricker** pointed out. He could have been tailing Martin from his car, which would be different than pursuing him on foot. The thread is just way too long for me to go back and find these posts. But I assure that I did not make them up. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1451 "2012-03-23T20:52:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cite that “there was no ongoing investigation, no evidence gathering, nothing”? > > Nope, it was the day after, not “2-3 days “. From your own cite “_The morning after the incident, Tracy Martin called missing persons and the police to report his son as missing. Officers were dispatched to the home, where they showed the father a crime scene photograph of Martin for identification purposes. Martin’s body had been taken to the medical examiner’s office as a John Doe.[47]_ No need to take such an adversarial tone, please note that i was ASKING for better cites to get the facts, since what is ALSO in the wiki cite is this: > [@](#): > > The police took Trayvon Martin’s body and stored it in a morgue for three days, calling him “John Doe”. Martin’s family accuses the police of not asking any of the neighbors if they recognized Martin.[33] According to David Horsey, they also did not check his cellphone to find someone he knew.[34] So you point to one part of the wiki, I another. Hence my confusion and request for better answers. Because here’s more from the wiki article that points to the need for clarification (and answers your request for a cite to the idea that the investigation ended almost immediately): > [@](#): > > Zimmerman has not been charged with any crime, because he claimed the right of self-defense, and investigators said they could find no evidence disproving that claim.[40][10] According to Martin’s father, Tracy Martin, when the family asked why Zimmerman had not been arrested, the police responded that he had a “squeaky-clean record” and they respected his educational background in criminal justice. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman had a previous charge in 2005 of battery on a police officer while interfering with the arrest of a friend. He subsequently entered a pretrial diversion program, which is not considered a conviction on his criminal record.[37] Zimmerman had previously been accused of domestic violence by an ex-girlfriend, who had filed for a restraining order against him.[38] And Kimmy’s post makes this look incredibly lame: > [@](#): > > The night of the shooting, Sanford police accepted Zimmerman’s account at face value and did not test him for drugs or alcohol, although such tests are standard procedure in most homicide investigations.[45] Police Chief Lee said he did not have enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman. “In this case Mr. Zimmerman has made the statement of self-defense,” Lee said. “Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don’t have the grounds to arrest him.” > [@](#): > > Lee repeatedly defended the investigation, stating that the Sanford police did not feel they had conducted a racially biased investigation and welcomed a review of their efforts.[44][14] Allegations were also made that the Sanford police were protecting Zimmerman.[41] A witness who disagreed with Zimmerman’s self-defense plea stated that she saw Zimmerman standing over Martin’s body after hearing Martin cry out for help and stated that police only took a brief statement from her, despite her attempts to provide more detail.[41] ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1452 "2012-03-23T20:53:49Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > By arguing that Zimmerman’s decision to play cop (see all the information about his background, fascination with law enforcement, etc) with a loaded gun, patrolling the grounds looking for suspicious people and following them around is a recipe for disaster… I can’t disagree. However it does not remove his right to defend himself as Florida law allows. > [@](#): > > …one that has baked up into a dead 17 year old boy who was an excellent student with a bright future and no record of any kind. : Certainly is possible, but I wouldn’t expect prior to a trial that the public would be privy to any of Martin’s juvenile records (if such exist). ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1453 "2012-03-23T20:55:02Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > IF the gunshot was lawful, as in self defense, it negates it, as the statute calls for the UNlawful killing. > [@Duke](#): > > So a lawful act cannot be _per se_ imminently dangerous? If I’m reading that statute right, if it is a lawful self-defense killing, we don’t even have to get to the part determining whether the act was imminently dangerous. I don’t think it _means_ it’s not imminently dangerous. A lawful act can be dangerous, sure, the way I facially read it though is, the ACT itself must be not only be UNlawful but ID. It is imminently dangerous to drop a child from a second story window, but if there is a fire and the rescuer feels it will save the baby’s life, is this an unlawful act? Sometimes forest fires are started to STOP the spread of an _oncoming fire_, cut off the energy continuation, no fuel. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1454 "2012-03-23T20:57:18Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Now I think all of this indicates that he did in fact follow Martin and confront him. A physical confrontation followed, it is not clear who initiated the actual physical contact. it is unclear who had the “upper hand” but Zimmerman at some point shot Martin. He may have in fact been thinking he was defending himself, but he also probably had an itchy trigger finger and even possibly a misguided sense of vigilante-ism. He then told the police a lie about who initiated the initial confrontation. I do not know what laws that would mean he broke, if any. > > This is my belief. My belief is just that, my belief. It is not offered up as being definitive of anything, just what I think likely happened. If burden of proof to convict is 95-99% confidence, I would place my belief at about 70-75%. This is my hunch as well. Further, I would bet dollars against donuts, that Zimmerman tried to restrain Martin somehow – grabbing a sleeve or something – and Martin struggled to get away. Did Martin then get the upper hand in some sort of altercation? Maybe. Quite possibly, really. But that doesn’t warrant getting shot in the chest. Where is the personal responsibility in Zimmerman for turning an innocent kid walking down the street into a violent confrontation? And that’s what happened, whether Martin socked him in the nose first or not. Zimmerman’s actions caused this whole fucked up situation. Martin was reacting to them. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1455 "2012-03-23T20:59:26Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > Stoid, I don’t see it that way, to wit: > > …The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another **and** evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life.. > I bolded **AND** , it does not say **OR**. So being conjunctive, one must possess a depraved mind WITH an act imminently dangerous to another. > > What was the ACT (s) that were imminently dangerous, or do you read the clauses as seperable in nature? I don’t. No, I don’t either, which is why I included the definitions of depraved mind as the law sees it: it doesn’t mean some drooling monster out of touch with reality. > [@](#): > > Depravity of mind refers to the state of mind which is contrary to justice, honesty or morality. Depravity of mind is a condition where there is \*\*a deviation or departure from the ordinary standards of honest, good morals, justice, or ethics \*\*as to be shocking to the moral sense of the society. Depravity of mind can also be described as an act of baseness, vileness, or depravity in the private and **social duties which a person owes to another, or to a community.** > Quote: > In the area of legal ethics, **offenses that involve depravity of mind such as fraud or breach of trust** , make a person unfit to practice law. In Military law, an act involving depravity of mind is punishable, usually with a dishonorable discharge or confinement not less than a year. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1456 "2012-03-23T21:02:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So you believe the cops were incompetent in not getting a court order to test Zimmerman’s blood, which they could have by swearing that because Zimmerman’s statement was disorganized and he was twitchy. > > And your evidence that Zimmerman’s statement was disorganized and he was twitchy is that you can’t imagine that he wasn’t. > > Wow. > > Well, damn, why don’t we just ask you what happened, take your word for it, and proceed to sentencing? In post 1346 I simply answered a question you asked of another poster: “So what do you say in your affidavit to the judge that shows probable cause to believe that a blood sample from Zimmerman will reveal the fruits of a crime?” You didn’t like that answer so your goal post has now shifted to address my opinion as to what the cops should have done. you know better than I what standard steps are taken in the event someone is shot in an altercation but IMO the police should take sufficient forensic evidence to reconstruct what happened and corroborate all the witness’s statements. And IMO they should also attempt to ascertain the physical and mental state of both the shooter and the victim. To put it another way, they should give it at least the same treatment as a fatal car accident. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1457 "2012-03-23T21:04:03Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The thread is just way too long for me to go back and find these posts. But I assure that I did not make them up. Not suggesting that you did. Merely suggesting that maybe you interpreted those statements a bit differently than intended. I am fairly certain in my mind that most likely he followed Martin on foot. However I don’t find it unreasonable that certain wind conditions, breathing patterns, and/or pacing in circles might sound like what we heard on the 911 tape. I don’t dispute the evidence, I simply find the evidence we have to be less than “beyond a reasonable doubt”. Now on the side of a civil suit, I think there may already be preponderance of evidence enough to cause Zimmerman trouble. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1458 "2012-03-23T21:14:01Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Evidence (witnesses and wounds to Zimmerman) suggest that Martin had the “upper hand”.\* There is also evidence that Zimmerman had the upper hand because he brought a gun to a Skittles fight and he was not the one with a gunshot wound to the chest. ASSUMING that the description of Zimmerman’s account is correct and his action to shoot was spurred by the alleged attack in the street, it does not matter that Martin was on top of him. It does not prove that Martin chased him either. It just means that Martin was observed being on top of him for the moment that the witness saw them. None of the witness’s interviews prove or disprove anything. They only beg other information. **Stoid** , I am glad I’m not the only one who believes “on-going investigation” really means “oops, we better go back to what we were about to shut down for good”. When I started this thread, the Dispassionate weren’t saying that the police didn’t have enough probable cause _at this moment in time_. They were saying there wasn’t enough to make a successful case. There was lecturing about how the prosecution would only be wasting its time and that it would be unfair to make them take a unwinnable case. So early on, even here, the case was talked about in terms of futility and “unwinnability” in a court of law. There was distinct tone of past tense. The appeals to “wait and see, there is more to come!” came later, when the outrage made this a national story and evidence, like the phone logs, were brought to the police’s attention. You saw it and I did too. But no doubt our observation will be deemed incorrect… the result of too much shrill in our diets. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1459 "2012-03-23T21:29:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is there something special about this case that causes commentators here to shade or falsify news to help their perceptions? > > [According to CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2), “Sanford, Florida, police chief steps aside ‘temporarily’ in fallout from teen’s death.” > > I grant you that’s not a ringing endorsement of his job, but neither is it a resignation. Why report it here as a resignation? I was not at all aware it was temporary, in local Florida news they simply said he RESIGNED with no temporary qualifier. Check the link I posted. Again I didn’t mean to misrepresent anything, I was just reporting what I had heard. Actual headline below: > [@](#): > > Thousands march in Florida after police chief resigns over neighborhood watch shooting of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin Where is the temporary? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1460 "2012-03-23T21:30:20Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The appeals to “wait and see, there is more to come!” came later, when the outrage made this a national story and evidence, like the phone logs, were brought to the police’s attention. > . True, l:dubious:ike these posts::rolleyes: #3 needscoffee “_Maybe they’re figuring out what degree of crime he can be reasonably convicted of based on scant evidence? Murder vs manslaughter, 1st degree, 2nd degree, etc. At this point there’s only his word on what happened, and they need evidence to get a conviction.”_ #8 Shemdrick “\*So what? Disobeying the 911 operator (are they even actual cops?) is not an actual crime, is it? And if he then found himself in legitimate fear of his life, he may have acted in self defense. Not saying that’s necessarily what happened, of course. “\* #9 Martin Hyde “\*Could be the prosecution is going over this guy’s story to decide if: a) if he committed a crime if his story is true b) if his story is true / sounds credible / sounds like bullshit c) if, in their opinion the story is bullshit and/or it’s true but reflects a crime, do they have sufficient evidence and ability to convict him of anything”\* #16 Cheshire Human “_The simple answer to the OP, “Why hasn’t the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested?”, is “The cops/prosecutor don’t yet have enough information/evidence to support an arrest.” That’s it. No other reason. They won’t arrest him until they do have enough, which may or may not happen quickly, or at all. That’s the answer to all questions of that nature. “_ :rolleyes::dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=72) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=74)