# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 83
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1641 "2012-03-24T17:29:51Z")
I keep hearing people say “vigilantism.” I’ve always understood a vigilante to be someone who takes the law in their own hands to deal with **real criminals** , this is kind of a first for me that I’ve heard it being applied to someone by people who believe the vigilante’s “victim” wasn’t a criminal at all. I thought the term was more typically used to denounce people who were taking the law into their own hands against **real criminals** , the reprehensible act not being that they were going after innocent people but that in a civil society it isn’t the job of ordinary citizens, or appropriate for ordinary citizens, to take the law into their own hands **even against an actual criminal**. Just seems a bit out of the “norm” in my experience, to see people using that term in reference to Zimmerman, since the people using it don’t believe Martin was a criminal at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1642 "2012-03-24T17:34:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We know he pursued Martin against common sense. After that it’s one person’s opinion that someone who just acted irrationally is… acting irrationally. I can pick an unlimited number of behavioral attributes to attach to Zimmerman. > > you keep arguing like this is some kind of law 101 class. In the real world Zimmerman would have had a microscope shoved up his ass if Martin was the son of Ted Kennedy. It’s the same real world where a repeated drunk driver gets away with a negligent traffic death. > > In the real world the death of an innocent black teenager shot by an armed neighborhood watch captain reeks of vigilantism and is going to open up a huge can of worms. That’s the real world Bricker. And in that world, the police have the license to pursue an investigation to the fullest extent of that license. > > There will always be a difference in what lengths police will go to investigate a dead drug dealer shot in front of 50 deaf/dumb/blind witnesses and the death of a politician’s child. It may be that in the “real world,” police would feel pressured to lie in order to get the probable cause they needed to more completely investigate the death of a politician’s child. Are you saying they should have done so here? You keep dancing around the issue. Speak plainly: is your claim that the police should have lied in order to get the warrant they needed to more fully investigate Zimmerman’s sobriety? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1643 "2012-03-24T17:35:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Assuming facts not in evidence – how did you establish that Zimmerman had a legal duty to retreat? Could you just sort of roughly describe what it is that you think led us to be having this, as it were, conversation? Like in what context I said what I said, and in what context you’re now offering your critique? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1644 "2012-03-24T17:36:38Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I keep hearing people say “vigilantism.” I’ve always understood a vigilante to be someone who takes the law in their own hands to deal with **real criminals** , this is kind of a first for me that I’ve heard it being applied to someone by people who believe the vigilante’s “victim” wasn’t a criminal at all. > > I thought the term was more typically used to denounce people who were taking the law into their own hands against **real criminals** , the reprehensible act not being that they were going after innocent people but that in a civil society it isn’t the job of ordinary citizens, or appropriate for ordinary citizens, to take the law into their own hands **even against an actual criminal**. > > Just seems a bit out of the “norm” in my experience, to see people using that term in reference to Zimmerman, since the people using it don’t believe Martin was a criminal at all. Here is my take: as I understand it, one of the principle fears of vigilanteeism is that because the vigilante is poorly trained and acts on impulse, he will ultimately err and apply his sanctions to an innocent victim, not a criminal. It seems fair for people to use that term here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1645 "2012-03-24T17:38:22Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Could you just sort of roughly describe what it is that you think led us to be having this, as it were, conversation? Like in what context I said what I said, and in what context you’re now offering your critique? I was responding to your line to **Terr** : > [@](#): > > Self defense is a defense, which means he has to prove it. If there was a more specific context that I missed, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1646 "2012-03-24T17:54:18Z")
I’m not any more certain than you are that Zimmerman couldn’t raise a defense if it came to it, although I’m inclined to believe it could be rebutted. And you were right to point out that “prove” is the wrong word. The “assuming facts not in evidence” kind of rankled, given that **Terr** has been making the point that it doesn’t matter whether Zimmerman was the aggressor, or what circumstances led him to believe he was in danger. It’s not my assumption. He had a legal duty to retreat if he was the aggressor – the exact question **Terr** is saying is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1647 "2012-03-24T17:54:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree. I think it’s very dangerous to start an analysis of a crime with, “Everyone knows what happened here.” Everyone knows Zimmerman thought Martin was messed up an possibly armed. Everyone knows he got out of his car. Common sense in this instance would be to avoid any confrontation. Everybody knows a fight ensued away from Zimmerman’s car. Everybody knows Marin got the better of Zimmerman in that fight. Everybody knows Martin is dead as a result of that fight. Now did Zimmerman feel threatened? It was apparent that in his mind Martin posed a threat to him from the very beginning. This certainly was enforced by being on the receiving end of a fight. The question of liability in the death of Marin is WHY was there a fight in the first place? Zimmerman was motivated by a desire to stop an imagined drug crazed and armed burglar. Martin’s motive was to get away from a guy stalking him. > [@Bricker](#): > > **Magiver** is doing the same thing. He doesn’t want to come right out and say it, but he’s telling me that in order to get a blood test warrant, the cops should have said that Zimmerman was jittery or that his statement was disorganized, _even if it wasn’t_. Because, after all, everyone knows what happens in situations like that. > > I don’t think that’s the way to do things. I believe we all serve ourselves better by reaching judgments based on facts, not suppositions. > > When the Duke lacrosse players were accused of rape, “everyone knew what happened,” too. Only it didn’t, did it? no “everybody” did not know what happened in the Duke lacrosse event. and what is the cure for the lack of information? Forensic evidence. Martin’s teeth should be rotting from too much candy, not his body. At the very least we should know all the facts behind a fatal shooting by an armed person looking for trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1648 "2012-03-24T18:06:39Z")
Maybe Zimmerman could have protected his face from being punched if he covered it with his arms. Against a kid armed only with skittles, that would have been an easy way to escape serious danger. But I guess he needed to keep his arms free for something else. Yeah, I know, not fair. Maybe Martin pinned his arms to the side while punching him, only leaving them free enough to draw and fire a gun. It’s just what we know of the story sounds so damning. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1649 "2012-03-24T18:07:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It may be that in the “real world,” police would feel pressured to lie in order to get the probable cause they needed to more completely investigate the death of a politician’s child. > > Are you saying they should have done so here? > > You keep dancing around the issue. Speak plainly: is your claim that the police should have lied in order to get the warrant they needed to more fully investigate Zimmerman’s sobriety? Why do you insist that police would be lying when clearly Zimmerman’s actions were irrational. It’s their JOB to get as much information as possible particularly when it involves a death. If you think it’s unfair that they have discretion as to how hard they pursue something that then you’re chasing a windmill. Moving beyond this you have to acknowledge that “behavior” is an indexed value. To say that Zimmerman was bat-shit crazy they would have to lie. To say he was Mr Rogers calm would also be a lie. Is Zimmerman a 6 and deserves a warrant or is he a 5 and screw it, it’s not my kid. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1650 "2012-03-24T18:11:04Z")
There are absolutely no facts here that suggest the outcome of Trayvon Martin’s night should have been anything other than returning home to enjoy a snack and finish his conversation with his girlfriend. What do you think the just, proper and right outcome should have been, Bricker? What facts tell you that Trayvon was out to cause mayhem, steal, vandalize or assault anyone? If that is the outcome that should have happened, who is responsible for it not happening? The answers to those questions are what everyone knows. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1651 "2012-03-24T18:11:11Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > Maybe Zimmerman could have protected his face from being punched if he covered it with his arms. Against a kid armed only with skittles, that would have been an easy way to escape serious danger. > > But I guess he needed to keep his arms free for something else. > > Yeah, I know, not fair. Maybe Martin pinned his arms to the side while punching him, only leaving them free enough to draw and fire a gun. It’s just what we know of the story sounds so damning. If it’s true that Zimmerman had 100 lbs on him then I would be embarrassed for him independent of the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1652 "2012-03-24T18:35:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If it’s true that Zimmerman had 100 lbs on him then I would be embarrassed for him independent of the shooting. A 140 lb. man in good condition could beat the shit out of a 240 lb couch slug. I can’t tell from his picture what kind of build Zimmerman had, he could either be a stocky solid build or a chubby lardass. Weight isn’t everything, or the people on rascals at Walmart would be cage fighters. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1653 "2012-03-24T18:41:11Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > My point with that comment was to counter your snark regarding the presence of a statement from Zimmerman. Of course people realize that there’s a statement from Zimmerman. Most people here recognize that it is of dubious value. From the beginning I have been trying to show how things work in the real world. The novices are arguing about justice. Those that understand such things have been trying to explain the law. The law does not always equal justice. It’s been designed that way. To say that his statement has dubious value proves you have not been listening. When taking a statement of course you take into consideration what their motivation is to lie or tell the truth. Which is why it’s weighed against the other evidence for consistency. I have been dealing with a case all week. It’s not a murder it’s a rape case. But guess what the prosecutor is using as a reason why he isn’t charging one suspect? A suspect’s statement. I don’t believe he is telling the whole truth but the AP seems to not want to go forward because of it. A suspect’s statement does not have dubious value. It is a piece of evidence. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > There are absolutely no facts here that suggest the outcome of Trayvon Martin’s night should have been anything other than returning home to enjoy a snack and finish his conversation with his girlfriend. > > What do you think the just, proper and right outcome should have been, Bricker? What facts tell you that Trayvon was out to cause mayhem, steal, vandalize or assault anyone? If that is the outcome that should have happened, who is responsible for it not happening? > > The answers to those questions are what everyone knows. I have not been able to read every single post but I didn’t see where anyone thought Martin deserved to die. Some people, most with a legal background, have pointed out why there is difficulty charging or prosecuting this case under Florida law. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1654 "2012-03-24T18:49:14Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > From the beginning I have been trying to show how things work in the real world. The novices are arguing about justice. Those that understand such things have been trying to explain the law. The law does not always equal justice. It’s been designed that way. To say that his statement has dubious value proves you have not been listening. When taking a statement of course you take into consideration what their motivation is to lie or tell the truth. Which is why it’s weighed against the other evidence for consistency. I have been dealing with a case all week. It’s not a murder it’s a rape case. But guess what the prosecutor is using as a reason why he isn’t charging one suspect? A suspect’s statement. I don’t believe he is telling the whole truth but the AP seems to not want to go forward because of it. A suspect’s statement does not have dubious value. It is a piece of evidence. > > I have not been able to read every single post but I didn’t see where anyone thought Martin deserved to die. Some people, most with a legal background, have pointed out why there is difficulty charging or prosecuting this case under Florida law. I’m certainly well aware that justice is not the concern of those involved in the legal profession. Most of the rest of us are not similarly impaired, and are quite about to see what is clearly right and wrong in this situation. Given that we are not here in a court of law, we are free to focus on issues of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1655 "2012-03-24T19:01:36Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > From the beginning I have been trying to show how things work in the real world. The novices are arguing about justice. Those that understand such things have been trying to explain the law. The law does not always equal justice. It’s been designed that way. Yes, but I for one have been arguing that Zimmerman created the confrontation in the first place against reason. He literally went looking for trouble armed with a gun. Regardless of whether he was justified in the use of force he created the need for it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1656 "2012-03-24T19:08:16Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I’m not any more certain than you are that Zimmerman couldn’t raise a defense if it came to it, although I’m inclined to believe it could be rebutted. And you were right to point out that “prove” is the wrong word. > > The “assuming facts not in evidence” kind of rankled, given that **Terr** has been making the point that it doesn’t matter whether Zimmerman was the aggressor, or what circumstances led him to believe he was in danger. It’s not my assumption. He had a legal duty to retreat if he was the aggressor – the exact question **Terr** is saying is irrelevant. Correct. If he was the physical aggressor, he had a duty to retreat. Note that the mere fact of following someone, or asking someone what business they have, is not aggression. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1657 "2012-03-24T19:15:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Everyone knows Zimmerman thought Martin was messed up an possibly armed. Everyone knows he got out of his car. > Common sense in this instance would be to avoid any confrontation. > Everybody knows a fight ensued away from Zimmerman’s car. > Everybody knows Marin got the better of Zimmerman in that fight. > Everybody knows Martin is dead as a result of that fight. > > Now did Zimmerman feel threatened? It was apparent that in his mind Martin posed a threat to him from the very beginning. This certainly was enforced by being on the receiving end of a fight. > > The question of liability in the death of Marin is WHY was there a fight in the first place? Zimmerman was motivated by a desire to stop an imagined drug crazed and armed burglar. Martin’s motive was to get away from a guy stalking him. So what? Your version of common sense is not the appropriate standard to use here. The question is only if Zimmerman was acting lawfully. It may not have comported with your idea of common sense for him to follow Martin, but that is not what creates legal liability for him. That does not make him an aggressor under the law. > [@](#): > > . At the very least we should know all the facts behind a fatal shooting by an armed person looking for trouble. At some point, yes, we should. But not while the investigation is still active. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1658 "2012-03-24T19:18:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In Zimmermans\* home\* it sure as hell does. (Absent certain odd circumstance, like they have reason to believe he is fleeing.) I should have been more clear, my error. Your post concerned POST scene arrest, I fumbled it and commented on a “public place” arrest where a warrant is not needed. At one time (before 1979) under the federal constitution, an arrest warrant was not necessary to effect an arrest in a home, as a side note. Now, as you say, absent exigency/emergency, one is needed, and if Zimmerman was in another person’s home at a time of arrest, a search warrant would also be needed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1659 "2012-03-24T19:21:09Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m certainly well aware that justice is not the concern of those involved in the legal profession. > > Most of the rest of us are not similarly impaired, and are quite about to see what is clearly right and wrong in this situation. Given that we are not here in a court of law, we are free to focus on issues of justice. But when the results of your learned musings is to demand that a man be arrested, you cross from the lofty heights of moral theory into the actual operation of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1660 "2012-03-24T19:26:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, but I for one have been arguing that Zimmerman created the confrontation in the first place against reason. He literally went looking for trouble armed with a gun. Regardless of whether he was justified in the use of force he created the need for it in the first place. What, exactly does “looking for trouble” mean here? Specifically, are you referring to illegal behaviour that would allow Martin to attack Zimmerman? If so, it would be helpful for you to refer to the specific behaviour, rather than vague trouble. He had every right to be armed, so that part is utterly irrelevant. That’s not to say that you have to agree that it _should_ be legal to follow someone whilst armed, and question them on there behaviour, only that it is irrelevant to this case, and this discussion, if you do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=82) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=84)