# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 85
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1681 "2012-03-24T20:06:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m at a loss to understand your fascination. My position is and has been that everyone can see what the just and right outcome would be here. Our so very learned legal brethren here have been at pains to explain to us novices how we are confusing the law with issues of justice, and how a dispassionate understanding of the law would help our little minds to understand. In some circumstances, some interpretations of the matter have been wondered about as being biased by race. > > Now it turns out that those who authored and signed into law the very thing we needed help to comprehend agree with our interpretation. > > So I’m left with the impression that our learned brethren have been misleading us all along, and I am left to wonder if their impressions were based on political biases and agendas rather than a dispassionate comprehension of difficult legal concepts. Justice can only be arrived at with a full and careful evaluation of _all the evidence_ since no one on this message board, and virtually no one protesting this situation in society at large has that evidence, I would argue you cannot say with certainty what the just and right outcome of this case should be. Further, the fact that you assert you **know** what the just and right outcome would be, without having all of the evidence before you, shows precisely why it’s a good thing we have a criminal justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1682 "2012-03-24T20:11:31Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Chief Lee initially said that Zimmerman had a bloody nose and some blood on the back of his head. Now, because of comments by Zimmerman’s legal adviser Craig Sonner, it’s taken as gospel that he had a broken nose and a seriuos laceration to the back of his head. Did he? I can’t tell. Isn’t a broken nose a simple medical fact? Sonner doesn’t seem sure,..in his own words: His lawyer says in the article you quote that he went to a doctor and they apparently didn’t treat the nose because it was already healing up…I don’t know how common that is these days but a friend of mine broke his nose playing basketball when I was a teenager and it was essentially “left to heal itself” without any further treatment. However, the fact that Zimmerman went to a doctor to look at the nose means there is certainly a factual piece of evidence that will clarify whether his nose was broken or not, and that will come out eventually if this goes to trial. (It perhaps will not if it doesn’t go to trial, since I don’t believe Zimmerman would otherwise have any reason to release his private medical records.) > [@](#): > > Sonner has also said that he doesn’t believe SYG is relevant to this case and that it’s really about defending yourself in your home. It is? He also has states that he hasn’t discussed what happened that night with Zimmerman. People are referring to this guy as Zimmerman’s lawyer but he seems to have been hired as a PR guy. I believe that is all that Zimmerman’s lawyer _can_ do right now. I think until Zimmerman is charged, Zimmerman’s lawyer has no right to request any of the evidence the police or State’s Attorney has, so he can’t really perform any real legal work aside from meeting with Zimmerman and listening to Zimmerman’s story privately. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1683 "2012-03-24T20:15:29Z")
If Zimmerman was that injured, surely he would have received medical treatment at the scene or shortly after. Right? A broken nose ain’t no joke. Anyone know if he ever went to an ER? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1684 "2012-03-24T20:30:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If Zimmerman was that injured, surely he would have received medical treatment at the scene or shortly after. Right? A broken nose ain’t no joke. Anyone know if he ever went to an ER? No idea if he went to an ER. When police took Zimmerman into custody they handcuffed him first, removed his weapon from his person, and then allowed paramedics to treat him on the scene. He was then taken to the police station for questioning and later released. This is as reported in a Reuters article about the case. Zimmerman’s lawyer indicates he received treatment from a doctor, but that seems to have consisted of the doctor examining him but not doing anything really to the nose. I’m assuming that doctor would be able to say definitively in a trial if Zimmerman’s nose was broken or not, though. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1685 "2012-03-24T20:30:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I will share what I am struggling with. > > As a matter of principle, I support the idea of SYG. And… scene. Exactly as I said earlier; the support/ambiguity/benefit-of-the-doubt being shown towards Zimmerman is primarily motivated by people who are pro-gun, not anti-black. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1686 "2012-03-24T20:46:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What, exactly does “looking for trouble” mean here? Specifically, are you referring to illegal behaviour that would allow Martin to attack Zimmerman? If so, it would be helpful for you to refer to the specific behaviour, rather than vague trouble. > > He had every right to be armed, so that part is utterly irrelevant. > > That’s not to say that you have to agree that it _should_ be legal to follow someone whilst armed, and question them on there behaviour, only that it is irrelevant to this case, and this discussion, if you do. What constitutes looking for trouble is confronting someone you believe to be a criminal. The key word is confront. While the 1st amendment allows freedom of speech courts have recognized that speech and actions have consequences. Martin was presented with someone stalking him who then got out of the car and confronted him. Can we prove that Zimmerman inflamed Martin to the point of a physical exchange? In the absence of a motive for Martin to make any contact at all let alone attack him Zimmerman we are left with the only motive of contact and escalation to a fight and that is Zimmerman’s desire to stop a thief. Adding to this senario, Zimmerman exercised poor judgement leaving his car to confront someone he thought dangerous. He elevated the level of danger in his own mind. ---
**Author:** ![DavidIII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@DavidIII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidIII)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1687 "2012-03-24T20:47:42Z")
Neither Zimmerman nor his victim are “White”. “Neighborhood ‘_watch_’” means watch. Watch - not draw a weapon and fire. That is called Neighborhood vigilantism. “It’s Florida” ? The Floridian residents have form on this. “Knock, and it shall be opened unto you” - unless you are in Florida where they’ll take a shot at you through the front door and not even be asked questions later. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1688 "2012-03-24T21:20:29Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And… scene. > Exactly as I said earlier; the support/ambiguity/benefit-of-the-doubt being shown towards Zimmerman is primarily motivated by people who are pro-gun, not anti-black. For someone who is fond of quoting monstrously long pieces of text, you sure are willing to edit out important bits when it suits you. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1689 "2012-03-24T21:26:45Z")
> [@DavidIII](#): > > Neither Zimmerman nor his victim are “White”. I knew about Zimmerman but would you mind providing a cite that Martin’s not “White”. To go with poker terminology, Zimmerman has a couple outs: -Martin attacked him. -Martin’s self defense crossed the line into assault and he couldn’t get away I doubt the first one. The second one is definitely possible but I’ve read they were seperated at one point. I just think that if Martin’s on top it’ll be difficult to get at his gun. One other point is that Zimmerman was seen standing over the body. That screams ‘I won. You didn’t’ to me. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1690 "2012-03-24T21:26:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I will share what I am struggling with. > > As a matter of principle, I support the idea of SYG. > > But the devil is in the details. Without the law, people are prosecuted by over zealous authority for legitimate self-defense actions. With the law, people can commit murder and simultaneously remove the only witness that could rebut their claim of self-defense. > > I think this version of stand your ground is flawed. I am leaning towards something that protects self defense with mandatory strong jury instructions and a bill that would recompense an acquitted shooter for his legal bills, or something, but I haven’t fully figured out how such a scheme might work. It seems to me that as [Zimmerman’s lawyer is not planning to use Stand Your Ground](http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) as a defense, the whole point of even discussing SYG is rather moot. Fair question, **Bricker** : Do you think Zimmerman’s lawyer is wrong in not planning to use SYG as a defense? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1691 "2012-03-24T21:27:28Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Exactly as I said earlier; the support/ambiguity/benefit-of-the-doubt being shown towards Zimmerman is primarily motivated by people who are pro-gun, not anti-black. The two groups overlap to such a degree as to be nearly indistinguishable. Let’s not forget NRA’s role here- they were the ones that lobbied for this stupid law. The blood is on their hands and on the hands of every state legislator who voted for the bill. Before, you had an obligation to retreat and not use deadly force if it was possible for you to retreat. The problem with that was what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1692 "2012-03-24T21:32:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am leaning towards something that protects self defense with mandatory strong jury instructions and a bill that would recompense an acquitted shooter for his legal bills, or something, but I haven’t fully figured out how such a scheme might work. Something else to consider might be whether or not “not being arrested at all”, or “not being indicted by a grand jury”, counts under “acquitted”. Because I have a feeling that Zimmerman, even if he is indicted and acquitted, or not indicted, will wind up with crushing legal bills (as well as general harassment by the mob). That can also be considered an injury that a justified shooter should not suffer as a penalty. I have no idea if the legal system can deal with problems like that, or if Zimmerman gets sued by Martin’s family (as he is rather likely to experience) and has to pay for his defense. It would be an argument in favor of the “loser pays” idea in civil suits, and I have no idea how common that outcome is in the Florida system. [QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] My position is and has been that everyone can see what the just and right outcome would be here. [/QUOTE] Well, the simple fact is that you are mistaken - not everyone can see what the just outcome should be. Indeed, the people most immediately responsible for deciding what should happen - the investigating police - decided that the just and right outcome for the moment was that Zimmerman should not be arrested. And as gets mentioned over and over again, the police can be presumed to have access to facts and information that is not available to anyone else. So just on the face of things, no, obviously “everyone” does not agree. Now Zimmerman has to go before a grand jury. That may be just and right, or it may not. But the decision to proceed in that fashion does not seem to be based on new facts coming to light (as far as we know), but on the hue and cry. And at least some of that hue and cry is coming from race pimps like Sharpton, and other “angry blacks”. None of whom have access to any data that the police do not. Part of what is annoying about this thread - people who keep saying “isn’t it obvious” that Zimmerman is a murderer. No, it isn’t. And it wasn’t to the police, who had Zimmerman’s statement and ballistic reports and autopsy information and Zimmerman’s reenactment of the shooting and probably more besides. That’s not the end of all this, obviously. But those who claim that it is clear that Zimmerman shot Martin in cold blood and the police simply took his word for it because Zimmerman is (half) white and Martin is black, are, at the least, concluding prematurely. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1693 "2012-03-24T21:32:38Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > For someone who is fond of quoting monstrously long pieces of text, you sure are willing to edit out important bits when it suits you. You appear to think something in Bricker’s post would change my point. It wouldn’t. But in any case, it’s here to be read, I didn’t hide it. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1694 "2012-03-24T21:34:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > T Before, you had an obligation to retreat and not use deadly force if it was possible for you to retreat. The problem with that was what, exactly? Ego, of course, isn’t that blindingly obvious? Look at the nickname of the law. Not gonna make ME slink away, my balls might shrivel up and fall off… ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1695 "2012-03-24T21:34:55Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > His lawyer says in the article you quote that he went to a doctor and they apparently didn’t treat the nose because it was already healing up…I don’t know how common that is these days but a friend of mine broke his nose playing basketball when I was a teenager and it was essentially “left to heal itself” without any further treatment… It was the head wound that he said was left to heal on its own. It’s only important because the “dispassionate” are using it to illustrate the severity of Zimmerman’s injuries. It either was broken or not, or Zimmerman said it was broken. It’s weaselly language. I think another thing unrealistic facet of these laws is the idea that in a real street fight, you’re making rational decisions about fearing seriuos injury or death. You might be able to do that if you are being robbed at gun or knife-point. Street fighting is all adrenaline and rage. Getting punched in the nose hurts; the few times it’s happened to me, I felt pure rage and tried to fight back with all my strength. It wouldn’t surprise me if it turns out Zimmerman shot Martin while he (GZ) was on his back. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1696 "2012-03-24T22:01:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Before, you had an obligation to retreat and not use deadly force if it was possible for you to retreat. The problem with that was what, exactly? Because I refuse to be a victim if I can help it. FYI, I carry a handgun everywhere I go. If someone physically attacks me or is about to attack me, and I believe my life is in danger, I will not attempt to run. I’ll stand my ground and live to tell about it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1697 "2012-03-24T22:04:35Z")
BTW - I posted the wrong URL before. The source that the police played the 911 call to Trayvon’s father and that he said it was not Trayvon’s voice screaming for help on it: [http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html](http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html) somewhere around the 1:29 mark. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1698 "2012-03-24T22:05:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > More to the point, the whole point of the SYG law is that if someone is punching you in the face, you don’t have the duty to cower and cover your face with your arms. I have no idea what happened, and neither do you, but if Martin struck Zimmerman first then you can’t demand that Zimmerman should respond by covering his face. You didn’t have to cower while being beaten before the SYG laws either, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1699 "2012-03-24T22:07:44Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Because I refuse to be a victim if I can help it. > > FYI, I carry a handgun everywhere I go. If someone physically attacks me or is about to attack me, and I believe my life is in danger, I will not attempt to run. I’ll stand my ground and live to tell about it. “God I admire you.” - Mr. Poon. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1700 "2012-03-24T22:08:24Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Before, you had an obligation to retreat and not use deadly force if it was possible for you to retreat. The problem with that was what, exactly? > [@Stoid](#): > > Ego, of course, isn’t that blindingly obvious? Look at the nickname of the law. Not gonna make ME slink away, my balls might shrivel up and fall off… > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Because I refuse to be a victim if I can help it.FYI, I carry a handgun everywhere I go. If someone physically attacks me or is about to attack me, and I believe my life is in danger, I will not attempt to run. I’ll stand my ground and live to tell about it. See what I mean? I tell ya, if there’s one thing I could magically do to vastly improve the human condition from the ground up, it would be to eliminate ego. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=84) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=86)