# Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504 "2012-03-12T00:53:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 86
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1701 "2012-03-24T22:12:45Z")
It is interesting to see the Zimmerman supporters twist themselves into knots trying to maintain that Zimmerman was just defending himself, but Trayvon, the kid who was just walking down the street minding his own business was not defending himself. Zimmerman was the driver of events. Had he not armed himself and approached Trayvon that night, all that would have happened was that Trayvon would have returned to his family and watched the rest of the game. I think it comes down to the fact that some people are scared of black teens (especially black teens in hoodies!) and are okay if they are gunned down every once in awhile to keep the rest in line. All the rest of the absurd mental gymnastics by which Zimmerman was just defending himself and the guy minding his own business was the aggressor is just to justify some really ugly prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1702 "2012-03-24T22:15:48Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > It is interesting to see the Zimmerman supporters twist themselves into knots trying to maintain that Zimmerman was just defending himself, but Trayvon, the kid who was just walking down the street minding his own business was not defending himself. Can you point out a post in this thread by one of such “supporters” that says that Trayvon was not defending himself? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1703 "2012-03-24T22:16:42Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Before, you had an obligation to retreat and not use deadly force if it was possible for you to retreat. The problem with that was what, exactly? At one point should I rationally considered every option available to me while I am being assaulted or threatened with immediate bodily harm? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1704 "2012-03-24T22:18:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > More to the point, the whole point of the SYG law is that if someone is punching you in the face, you don’t have the duty to **cower** and cover your face with your arms. Yeah, that’s surely a wonderful thing, to be relieved of the horror of cowering. Yes indeedy. You gotta love the special insanity of a law that’s designed to protect your ego, rather than your face. > [@Steve\_MB](#): > > [A point raised](http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/whats-missing-from-trayvon-martin.html) by Markos Moulitsas of _Daily Kos_ fame – there seems to be an odd absence of “if only the victim had been armed, this tragedy would have been avoided” arguments from the usual suspects. Wonder why that is…? And what do you attribute this to? A general distaste for advocating that 17 year old black kids be armed? Or a fundamental recognition of the fact that the right-to-carry law contributed mightily to this happening at all and a desire to avoid shining a light on that fact? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1705 "2012-03-24T22:24:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Can you point out a post in this thread by one of such “supporters” that says that Trayvon was not defending himself? Throughout this thread you have maintained that Zimmerman is acting in self defense which seems to preclude that Martin was acting in self defense. You in fact said it was not relevant if Martin was acting in self defense. I had proposed that maybe you think both people are acting in self defense, but that seems kind of crazy. I’m surprised that no one in this thread has called Zimmerman a hero yet, but I’m sure its coming. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1706 "2012-03-24T22:28:09Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Throughout this thread you have maintained that Zimmerman is acting in self defense which seems to preclude that Martin was acting in self defense. I explicitly said that it is quite possible for both parties to act in self-defense. > [@](#): > > You in fact said it was not relevant if Martin was acting in self defense. I had proposed that maybe you think both people are acting in self defense, but that seems kind of crazy. To the law it is irrelevant - there is nothing in the law that depends on the other party acting in self-defense or not. If you think it is relevant - please point out in the law where the relevant part is. And it may seem kind of crazy to you, but that’s your problem, not mine. So - can you cite a post of mine or someone else’s that said that Martin was not acting in self-defense? Because that is what you claimed. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1707 "2012-03-24T22:30:25Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > See what I mean? I tell ya, if there’s one thing I could magically do to vastly improve the human condition from the ground up, it would be to eliminate ego. What does defending myself have to do with ego? And even if it \*did \*have something to do with my ego, I do not see a problem. An ego is a good thing. At any rate, if it turns out Mr. Zimmerman was being attacked, then kudos to Mr. Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1708 "2012-03-24T22:42:18Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > What does defending myself have to do with ego? And even if it \*did \*have something to do with my ego, I do not see a problem. An ego is a good thing. > > At any rate, if it turns out Mr. Zimmerman was being attacked, then kudos to Mr. Zimmerman. As wonderful as your ego is, it is not worth another person’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1709 "2012-03-24T22:44:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > To the law it is irrelevant - there is nothing in the law that depends on the other party acting in self-defense or not. If you think it is relevant - please point out in the law where the relevant part is. A couple people already did. Didn’t take. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1710 "2012-03-24T23:40:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > To the law it is irrelevant - there is nothing in the law that depends on the other party acting in self-defense or not. If you think it is relevant - please point out in the law where the relevant part is. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > A couple people already did. Didn’t take. Yeah, kinda strange how that is. > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > What does defending myself have to do with ego? And even if it \*did \*have something to do with my ego, I do not see a problem. An ego is a good thing. A _genuinely_ healthy ego is a necessary thing. But this sort of ego-protection is incredibly destructive and represents a fundamentally fragile, unhealthy ego. A healthy ego has no attachment at all to something like needing to “stand your ground”, a healthy ego has no problem with cowering and covering one’s face to avoid damage to oneself or harm to another, especially if the alternative is killing someone. > [@monstro](#): > > As wonderful as your ego is, it is not worth another person’s life. Sadly, history is littered with the bodies of people who disagreed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1711 "2012-03-24T23:57:27Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > As wonderful as your ego is, it is not worth another person’s life. What does defending yourself have to do with ego? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1712 "2012-03-25T00:20:58Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > See what I mean? I tell ya, if there’s one thing I could magically do to vastly improve the human condition from the ground up, it would be to eliminate ego. That is truly hilarious. Thank you for injecting some humor into this serious thread. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1713 "2012-03-25T00:24:16Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > A healthy ego has no attachment at all to something like needing to “stand your ground”, a healthy ego has no problem with cowering and covering one’s face to avoid damage to oneself or harm to another, especially if the alternative is killing someone. I don’t think becoming a willing victim is a sign of a healthy ego. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1714 "2012-03-25T00:30:39Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > See what I mean? I tell ya, if there’s one thing I could magically do to vastly improve the human condition from the ground up, it would be to eliminate ego. Yours first. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1715 "2012-03-25T00:37:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Note that the mere fact of following someone, or asking someone what business they have, is not aggression. Yes, it is. Or at least it can be. Let me say first that I am not a lawyer, or a police officer, and I’m not going to discuss the law and precedent and previous applications and so on, because I’m just not competent to do that. And I have no idea what the meaning of the word “agression” is in a legal context, either in general or in the case of Florida law. But following someone and demanding what their business is, on a public street, is a very aggressive act. It implies (or states outright) that the person being questioned has some obligation to justify his or her presence in a given place at a given time. It implies that that person has no right to be there, and that the person doing the questioning has the right to decide if the person being questioned may go about his or her business. Someone walking along a public street, who is not clearly engaged in some illegal activity, does not have to justify his presence there to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1716 "2012-03-25T00:53:57Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Yeah, kinda strange how that is. Link. Just cuz you say so it ain’t so. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1717 "2012-03-25T01:00:27Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I don’t think becoming a willing victim is a sign of a healthy ego. Is that what you call withdrawing from a conflict without killing someone? The threat to the ego is the overwhelming fear of the world you feel. It makes you feel like a big puss, so you arm yourself and shoot a 17 year old kid. Listen, for everyone’s sake, take Stuart Hamm’s advice: If you’re scared, stay home. The rest of us? We got this. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1718 "2012-03-25T01:23:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Link. Just cuz you say so it ain’t so. Posts 1601, 1613, 1646, 1656 and now 1718. > [@](#): > > The justification … is not available to a person who… (i)nitially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless…the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and … he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1719 "2012-03-25T01:25:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What constitutes looking for trouble is confronting someone you believe to be a criminal. The key word is confront. While the 1st amendment allows freedom of speech courts have recognized that speech and actions have consequences. Martin was presented with someone stalking him who then got out of the car and confronted him. Can we prove that Zimmerman inflamed Martin to the point of a physical exchange? In the absence of a motive for Martin to make any contact at all let alone attack him Zimmerman we are left with the only motive of contact and escalation to a fight and that is Zimmerman’s desire to stop a thief. Adding to this senario, Zimmerman exercised poor judgement leaving his car to confront someone he thought dangerous. He elevated the level of danger in his own mind. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504/1720 "2012-03-25T01:27:24Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Posts 1601, 1613, 1646, 1656 and now 1718. > > the justification … is not available to a person who… (i)nitially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless…the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and … he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape Thank you for proving once again that if Zimmerman reasonably believed that he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, it is irrelevant to the law whether Martin was acting in self-defense or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=85) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-hasnt-the-neighborhood-watch-shooter-been-arrested/615504.md?page=87)