# Why have Democrats and Republicans refused to vote on H.R 40 for 25 years? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653 "2014-05-30T18:04:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/261 "2014-06-05T12:51:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Apart from the word “just”, in what way is this inaccurate? It’s inaccurate because it says something about black people that is false. It’s compounded that this is a negative stereotypical view. No, not all black people are “looking for a government handout”, whatever that means. It’s as inaccurate and racist to say this as to say “blacks are lazy”, “blacks are stupid”, “blacks are violent”, etc. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/262 "2014-06-05T12:53:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The percentage of American that know what “redlining” even means is probably very small, and the percentage of those that know they were victims of it…? I swear, if I were looking for a way to pay out to as few a number of African Americans as possible, I would hire you in a heartbeat. This is (or would be) just a start. And in my experience, the percentage of older black people who know what redlining is, especially among the people _who actually lived in redline areas_, is quite high. We’re just throwing ideas around, you know. You seemed to be okay with some of my other ones. If you don’t like this one, that’s okay too. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/263 "2014-06-05T13:23:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s inaccurate because it says something about black people that is false. Apart from the implications of the word “just”, which part of it is false? The ones pushing it are black, it is clearly a handout, and it comes from the government. > [@](#): > > No, not all black people are “looking for a government handout”, whatever that means. NO one said that all black people are looking for a government handout. Some black people are looking for reparations, which is a government handout. In the case of reparations, therefore, it is clearly true that black people are looking for a government handout. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/264 "2014-06-05T13:29:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Apart from the implications of the word “just”, which part of it is false? The phrase “black people are looking for a government handout”. Without a quantitative adjective like “some”, I take this to mean “all black people are looking for a government handout”. If it just means “some black people are looking for a government handout”, then it’s a pointless claim, because some of every single group of humans are looking for a government handout. > [@](#): > > The ones pushing it are black, it is clearly a handout, and it comes from the government. If you mean reparations, then no, not all of the ones pushing it are black, and whether it’s a handout or not depends on the meaning of the word (which undoubtedly differs) – I don’t see reparations for a legitimate wrong, like the Japanese-American interment compensation, as a “handout”. > [@](#): > > NO one said that all black people are looking for a government handout. Some black people are looking for reparations, which is a government handout. In the case of reparations, therefore, it is clearly true that black people are looking for a government handout. Without knowing the intended quantitative adjective, it’s either false (“all black people…”) or specious (“some black people…”). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/265 "2014-06-05T13:55:45Z")
The intended quantifier is “in the case of reparations”. Ergo, the statement “reparations are a case of black people seeking a government handout” is accurate. I suspect part of the issue is that I draw a distinction between statements that are racist, and statements that are true. A statement that is true cannot be racist, **because** a statement that is racist is not true. Therefore, the following statements are not racist - [ul][li]Reparations are a case of blacks seeking a government handout[/li][li]In the US, black-on-white rape is more common than white-on-black rape[/li][li]In the US, blacks score lower on standard tests of IQ and academic achievement than whites or Asians of the same socio-economic level[/ul]Please note that the words “all” and “every” do not appear in any of the statements.[/li] Regards, Shodan PS - “Black” in these instances refers to those who self-identify as black. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/266 "2014-06-05T14:06:35Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Money is not central to the reparation solution. Bullshit. Again. But feel free to describe a plan that does NOT involve money. > [@Honesty](#): > > You know what, **magellan01**. If you think this thread is about getting money from the U.S government. Well, you keep on thinking that. Okay, I will. I’ll also keep thinking that up is up and down is down. > [@Honesty](#): > > I love when white people come and try to tell black people what’s wrong with them. Good grief. What about your lack of self-acceptance, self-love, and contrived moral system? Your children run around shooting up each other Columbine-style, get together to consume semen-covered oreos, and have a propensity to act the fool in public. We know damn well when that half-Asian dude shot up those sorority girls there was no discussion of the failings of the “White Family” or the influence of white male privilege on sexism. I am sure, for you all, it boiled down to some inane talking point like “mental illness” or “lone wolf” that allows your conscience to remain oblivious to your own cultural problems. So, please. No, you’re getting funny. That’s something. Thanks for the snicker. And try to control the spittle. > [@Honesty](#): > > Black people can succeed just fine as long as white people aren’t obstructing them at every roadbend. Sounds like something I said. Good for you. I agree. > [@Honesty](#): > > We don’t need you,… Of course not. Just our money. > [@Honesty](#): > > …in fact, my friend, you need us more than we need you. Uh…no. > [@Honesty](#): > > As for welfare, that lunch ended in 1996. I don’t know what you’re talking about because eligibility requirements have been tightened to \>100% of the poverty line. Welfare as we know it, is dead. There’s no more government cheese, no more free butter, no more cash payments, and definitely no more rainbow-colored food stamps. Whenever you’re ready, feel free to jump in that time machine, turn the ignition key, and come back to 2014. It’s shinier here. Oh, brother. 😃 I wasn’t talking about today, genius. I was talking about the program, you know, with the payments tied to the mother, that led to the break-up of the Black family. Do pay attention. > [@Honesty](#): > > Oh, but it is. Indexed to inflation, you’ve strangled your education system to the point it has to be privatized. Would you like me to provide the cites? Just say the word, **magellan01**. It’s not a problem. Read about the Kansas City Experiment. I mean, I take it you know how to read, right?Then look at how much money is spent on pupils per district and see if that correlates to performance. Look at how much spending per student in the U.S. compares to kids elsewhere and how that correlates with performance. > [@Honesty](#): > > I was just thinking: this paragraph could be said by Donald Sterling, easy. I find it funny that in one hand you claim blacks don’t have “respect for learning” but on the other you claim that blacks advocate sending their children to charter schools. So which is it, Donald? Do blacks have respect for learning or do they prefer to send their children to charter schools for shits and giggles? I hope you realize that both cannot be true though feel free to contort the logic to fit your jigsaw narrative. Would you say that American Blacks have the same love of education than say, American Japanese? Yes or no? Now. while the answer to the above might be “No”, writ large, it does not mean that Black parents don’t want their kids to succeed, to not be killed in gang activity, shot, or thrown in jail for drug derailing or some other crimes. Wanting those things to NOT happen, and realizing that their local school has sucked for over a generation, they wisely jump at an alternative when it is present. You know, when White liberals like NYC’s new idiot mayor do not succeed in eliminating that option. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/267 "2014-06-05T14:13:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The intended quantifier is “in the case of reparations”. Ergo, the statement “reparations are a case of black people seeking a government handout” is accurate. No it’s not. It might be accurate for some, but for others they might be seeking justice, or some sort of reckoning, or some other motivation. [quote] I suspect part of the issue is that I draw a distinction between statements that are racist, and statements that are true. A statement that is true cannot be racist, **because** a statement that is racist is not true. Therefore, the following statements are not racist - [ul][li]Reparations are a case of blacks seeking a government handout[/ul][/li][/quote] This one is both racist (a negative sterotype) and false (see above). Do you think Japanese-American internment reparations were a case of Japanese-Americans seeking a government handout? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/268 "2014-06-05T14:21:42Z")
So “reparations are a case of black people seeking a government handout” is no more accurate than “reparations are a case of black people seeking justice”. In my opinion, the second is probably far more accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/269 "2014-06-05T14:27:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So “reparations are a case of black people seeking a government handout” is no more accurate than “reparations are a case of black people seeking justice”. In my opinion, the second is probably far more accurate. Actually, if by “justice” you mean “someone paying in some way for something they did wrong”, you are wrong-most of the perpetrators are dead and gone. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/270 "2014-06-05T14:33:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Actually, if by “justice” you mean “someone paying in some way for something they did wrong”, you are wrong-most of the perpetrators are dead and gone. Not necessarily. If the perpetrator was the government, then it’s the institution that is responsible, not the particular people in power at the time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/271 "2014-06-05T14:38:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Actually, if by “justice” you mean “someone paying in some way for something they did wrong”, you are wrong-most of the perpetrators are dead and gone. As far as individuals, the same goes for the Japanese-American internment compensation, as well as German reparations to Jews and Israel, but I think both of those instances advanced the cause of justice. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/272 "2014-06-05T14:48:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not necessarily. If the perpetrator was the government, then it’s the institution that is responsible, not the particular people in power at the time. I really don’t like going down that road. In my opinion the “government” isn’t an unchanging monolith-it’s an ever-changing interconnection of agencies that work against and/or with each other depending on the people currently in those agencies and those that direct those agencies from above. For the most part, the people that created those abhorrent policies and the citizens that were taxed to fund those abhorrent polices are no longer alive. Penalizing a different Federal government, made up of agencies that do not support those past policies in any way and staffed by workers that for the most part would have nothing to do with those past policies isn’t justice in any way, shape or form. If reparations are to be, they should be for past injustices done by a past government-not a punishment aimed at the current government. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/273 "2014-06-05T14:54:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I really don’t like going down that road. In my opinion the “government” isn’t an unchanging monolith-it’s an ever-changing interconnection of agencies that work against and/or with each other depending on the people currently in those agencies and those that direct those agencies from above. For the most part, the people that created those abhorrent policies and the citizens that were taxed to fund those abhorrent polices are no longer alive. Penalizing a different Federal government, made up of agencies that do not support those past policies in any way and staffed by workers that for the most part would have nothing to do with those past policies isn’t justice in any way, shape or form. If reparations are to be, they should be for past injustices done by a past government-not a punishment aimed at the current government. So do you think the other instances of reparations/compensation I’ve been mentioning were wrong and unjust? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/274 "2014-06-05T15:01:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I really don’t like going down that road. In my opinion the “government” isn’t an unchanging monolith-it’s an ever-changing interconnection of agencies that work against and/or with each other depending on the people currently in those agencies and those that direct those agencies from above. For the most part, the people that created those abhorrent policies and the citizens that were taxed to fund those abhorrent polices are no longer alive. Penalizing a different Federal government, made up of agencies that do not support those past policies in any way and staffed by workers that for the most part would have nothing to do with those past policies isn’t justice in any way, shape or form. If reparations are to be, they should be for past injustices done by a past government-not a punishment aimed at the current government. I’ve never seen reparations as punishment of the government. It certainly could be, if the payments were meant to be much more than simple compensation, but it needn’t be. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/275 "2014-06-05T15:01:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So do you think the other instances of reparations/compensation I’ve been mentioning were wrong and unjust? No-I never even implied that. I am saying that when a current government takes such an action because of previous misdeeds done by a totally different past government, it should be done because it is the right thing to do in and of itself, and not out of some sense of guilt, self-imposed or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/276 "2014-06-05T15:03:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No-I never even implied that. I am saying that when a current government takes such an action because of previous misdeeds done by a totally different past government, it should be done because it is the right thing to do in and of itself, and not out of some sense of guilt, self-imposed or otherwise. Okay. Not surprisingly, I think it’s very possible that reparations for past injustices against black people would be the right thing to do ‘in and of itself’. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/277 "2014-06-05T15:20:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay. Not surprisingly, I think it’s very possible that reparations for past injustices against black people would be the right thing to do ‘in and of itself’. As do I…but being the right thing to do is only part of it. It would be right for all past injustices throughout the history of our nation to be recompensed in some form or another, but to even attempt to do so would bankrupt our nation both monetarily and spiritually. Funding that was originally designed to move us into the future would instead be spent on figuring out how to assuage the guilt of the past, and taxpayer revolt would make today’s Tea Party fuss look like an actual tea party. The question is not, and never has been, _Are reparations right?_ The actual question is _How far are we prepared to go, what are we willing to pay, in time, money and effort, to right this particular wrong?_ ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/278 "2014-06-05T16:22:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [li]In the US, blacks score lower on standard tests of IQ and academic achievement than whites or Asians of the same socio-economic level[/list]Please note that the words “all” and “every” do not appear in any of the statements.[/li] That didn’t take long. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/279 "2014-06-05T16:29:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Bullshit. Again. But feel free to describe a plan that does NOT involve money. **magellan01** , I had intended on going line-for-line, but frankly, I think we’re at an impasse. You think blacks want some handout, that we don’t desire education, that we’re angling for the welfare line. I don’t have time to rehash these tired, boilerplate arguments. I’m just going to repost what I replied to in my previous post about non-monetary reparations. I will highlight it. If you have any questions, please reply, and I’ll be more than happy to explain it further. In the mean time, you’re more than welcome to continue believing reparations must involve money. [QUOTE=Honesty] Surprisingly, white people had the right reparation formula in 1960’s - Affirmative Action, the Voting Rights Act, Equal Pay Act. These were imperfect but suitable reparations for 400 years of mistreatment. Unfortunately, white people decided to renege on these “reparations” immediately after MLK died. He wasn’t in the ground for more than a decade before the Courts start striking them down one-by-one (See Bakke). Indeed, the Michigan case that was decided by the Supreme Court was brought on the ballot through voter fraud and the U.S government did nothing. Moreover, the striking down Section IV of the Voting Rights Act shows that white people are not serious at all in combating and even recognizing there is still systemic racism in this country which was ostensibly borne from the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow. [/QUOTE] I wish we could make the font bigger, but oh well. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/280 "2014-06-05T16:48:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not necessarily. If the perpetrator was the government, then it’s the institution that is responsible, not the particular people in power at the time. Oh, please,\*\* John Mace\*\*. The institution is the will of the people and it’s the people that have to pay. It’s truly that simple. Here’s an example. Ya’ll\* decided to vote for the highest peacetime deficit in the history in U.S in 1980 and 1984 elections. Then you got together and did it again in 2000 and 2004. We now have $17 trillion in debt with about ~$2 trillion in revenue. Who do you think will pay that debt? It won’t be us. It’ll be your grandchildren that’ll pay for it. You see, my friend, the government is a timeless institution which means the particular people in power at the time of these policies will be long, long dead. - Honesty - I say ya’ll, because blacks voted for Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis, the latter of the two specifically warned that the deficit was getting out of control during the 1984 and 1988 debates. We also voted for Gore and Kerry. If you look at the 2000 debates, Gore wanted to use the surplus to reduce the deficit. Ya’ll ignored them and decided to break the piggy bank anyway. So, now, I hope you like your $17 trillion peacetime deficit, the highest ever in the history of the United States. The voting public earned every penny of that deficit. And what do you have to show for it? Ridiculously low taxes, an anemic recovery, pot-hole filled roads, an education system thats underfunded, and millions of Americans still out of work. Good job. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653.md?page=15)