# Why have Democrats and Republicans refused to vote on H.R 40 for 25 years? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653 "2014-05-30T18:04:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/321 "2014-06-06T19:33:05Z")
NM-posted after warning. But it was _very_ witty and would have caused him to declare my superior knowledge to one and all. Really! ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/322 "2014-06-06T19:53:04Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Before I tackle this, can I make a request? Could you detail your extensive experience with inner city research? Have you been published the _Journal of Genealogy_ or any other peer-reviewed journal regarding genealogy that could be accessible through the journal’s website, Pubmed, or the Library of Congress? Don’t worry, I still have access via my [alma mater](http://www.umich.edu/), so all I need is a reference. Lastly, could you tell us a bit about your didactic training as a genealogist researcher and tie that with any seminars, talks, or conferences you may have attended that may be pertinent to African-American genealogy. > > Thanks so much. > > - Honesty You can make the request, but I decline to reveal my identity to you. If you have specific questions about any statement I made regarding the accessibility, contents, or even existence of various record types, ask away, and I shall be happy to point you to citations in the appropriate professional literature or other resources for more information. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/323 "2014-06-06T20:05:53Z")
Seems to me the folks most hurt by slavery… are the ones that basically can’t get their act together today. And these are the ones that would benefit the most from a big cash payment. But people who can’t get their act together are not known for doing anything productive when they get a load of money. A couple years down the road we’d be right back to where we started. It might even hurt the black cause. Because then you’d have a bunch of folks pointing out that big payout and asking what more do you want? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/324 "2014-06-06T21:06:50Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Yes and no. I can’t think of a reparations situation (although I’ll concede that one probably exists) that doesn’t involve payments to the aggrieved party. Wait, what? I detailed a reparation situation that doesn’t involve payments. It was the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act; these were, in my view, imperfect but suitable reparations for 400 years of mistreatment. To my knowledge, no Civil Rights legislation issued payments to aggrieved parties, rather, these pieces of legislation simply codified into law a recognition past and present discrimination in employment, housing, and in interstate commerce. > [@spifflog](#): > > \ And certainly most view this situation in terms of payments. Are you claiming that proposed H.R. 40 here does not include a request for money? > > "(C) Whether, in consideration of the Commission’s findings, any form of compensation to the descendants of African slaves is warranted. > > (D) If the Commission finds that such compensation is warranted, what should be the amount of compensation, what form of compensation should be awarded, and who should be eligible for such compensation." Well, it does request money to appropriate to the study. Does that count? The hypothetical findings of H.R 40 does not necessarily lead to (C) or (D). It could be, in theory, that the findings of H.R 40 would support the viewpoint that present day African-Americans have not measurably suffered from slavery and Jim Crow. Unfortunately, we won’t know until a study has been done. > [@spifflog](#): > > Are you really saying that payments to individuals is not one of the goals with this proposed legislation? Seems pretty central to most. When I look at the legislation, I don’t see the central goal to issue payments to individuals. Do you? Moreover, you say that it is “central to most”, what do you mean “most”. Most of what? Most legislation? Most reparation legislation? If it’s the latter, what other reparation legislative actions regarding African-Americans (or any other aggrieved party) are there to compare H.R 40 to? > [@spifflog](#): > > As I noted up thread, I think there is significant difference between compensation and redress. I personally think any compensation payments would be largely squandered. I don’t think its none of your business what people do what their money. Mind thy own business _or_ endeavor not to make everyone else’s business your own. Whichever is easier. If those payments are squandered, then they are squandered (and no more money should be given), but to throw the baby out with the bathwater because \*someone \* might not spend the money the way you want them too, is silly. God knows that TARP money was squandered on undue bonuses to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. > [@spifflog](#): > > It’s my experience that when the poor are given a significant amount of money at once, it’s squandered on cars, trips etc. And at the proverbial end of the day, these folks are back to where they started. What is your personal experience with the poor in this regard? Did you hear this on Fox News? Is this from experience from your poor, downtrodden brothers and sisters mired in inescapable poverty in Appalachia? Or, perhaps, are you simply extrapolating what occurs to individuals who win the lottery? Where do you base this belief (that the poor would squander the money on cars, trips, and non-essential items)? I want to know. > [@spifflog](#): > > I’d be more supportive of efforts to redress the ills of slavery in so far as they exist today via education. That effort was largely done in the latter half of the 20th century to no avail. If the government could do something along those lines, I’d support it, but I don’t know what that would be. If I could be God for a day on this issue and do just one thing, **I’d magically make the African American community value education** , as the white and particularly Asian community does. But I can’t do that of course. (bolding mine) Who the fuck do you think you are? African-Americans don’t value education? Really? You’re no better than that clown who parrots about blacks having a low IQ in every thread (then flies away in mortal terror). The ethnocentrism shines brightly within you, especially when you make the backward-ass comment that blacks don’t value education “as [the] white and Asian” communities do. Where the hell do you get this crap from? This is a serious question. Speaking of the unparallelled grace and ambition of whites and Asians, last I heard, a half-white, half-Asian dude went on a murderous rampage because he wasn’t getting laid. Indeed, perhaps ethnocentrism is genetic, because the half-Asian, half-White dude sardonically referred to a black student as “[ugly black filth](http://bossip.com/970026/smh-deranged-california-shooter-elliot-rodger-was-furious-at-ugly-black-filth-having-sex-with-white-girls/)” in his manifesto. Don’t worry, his actions and words do not reflect poorly on your perfect, impeccable, knowledge-seeking culture, he was simply “mentally ill” and a “lone wolf”. > [@spifflog](#): > > I think it’s wrong and they should. But there isn’t one slave holder alive today. And really **Honesty** , aren’t you bigger than that? Do you really care that they haven’t? Will it really mean that much to you? (in order of response) (1) I am glad you think they should apologize. We agree on something. (2) No, I am not bigger than that. (3) I do care that they haven’t. (4) Yes, it would mean a lot if the previous slave-holding States apologized. It would provide closure. > [@spifflog](#): > > My Jewish friends couldn’t careless what the people of Germany think about them, other than they can kiss their ass! While I (understandably) believe that Holocaust survivors have a difficult time getting over that, I think most believe the best revenge is living well. Good advice I’d say. Blacks and Jews are different. One is told he is descended from Ham (See [Curse of Ham](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham)) while the other is told they are [God’s chosen people](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people). One is told success is a reflection of their birthright and innate intelligence and while the other one is told they are mired in the swamp of their stuttering IQs (See [Bell Curve](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_curve)). One is expected to succeed by leaps and bounds as lawyers, doctors, bankers and engineers (See [Jewish Exceptionalism](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-l-pease/jewish-exceptionalism_b_608082.html)) while the other is expected to fail miserably at the above. In response, society has bent over backwards to contort to this line of thinking. Society has carved a nearly inescapable niche for blacks as entertainers, servants, artists, and showmen. If you’re going to compare blacks to any other group, compare us to the Native Americans or the Palestinians. We’re denigrated because we’re darker while being dismissed and mocked if we’re smart (See [The Delaney Sisters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Having_Our_Say:_The_Delany_Sisters'_First_100_Years), [Malcolm X](http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/malcolmx/section1.rhtml), [Obama](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_obama) and Fox News, etc). - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/325 "2014-06-06T21:27:30Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > You can make the request, but I decline to reveal my identity to you. > > If you have specific questions about any statement I made regarding the accessibility, contents, or even existence of various record types, ask away, and I shall be happy to point you to citations in the appropriate professional literature or other resources for more information. I don’t care about your identity, **slash2k**. Trust me, I am not going to jump in my [Gundam mobile suit](http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/2/22/1329925802461/Mobile-Suit-Gundam-007.jpg) and come rob you. You’re safer than a safe in a bank. I want[ed] you to show you have the education and training that’s expected of a genealogy researcher who ostensibly performs extensive research on African-American genealogy. It’s clear we’re at an impasse, so I won’t bother you in this regard. I’ll step over that and ask you this: what do you think about [genetic genealogy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_genealogy)? That is, do you believe that blacks could be identified using genetic markers rather than wholly relying on Census and housing records. Thank you. - Honesty P.S. **Czarcasm** , replying to this thread took a bit longer than intended. Will resurrect the thread to address your concerns regarding _Candyland_ later today or tomorrow. I have not forgotten about you, my friend. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/326 "2014-06-06T21:33:33Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > P.S. **Czarcasm** , replying to this thread took a bit longer than intended. Will resurrect the thread to address your concerns regarding _Candyland_ later today or tomorrow. I have not forgotten about you, my friend. 🙂 Don’t bother, unless you have something new to add to it. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/327 "2014-06-06T21:38:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Don’t bother, unless you have something new to add to it. Ok. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/328 "2014-06-06T21:38:23Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Wait, what? I detailed a reparation situation that doesn’t involve payments. It was the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act; these were, in my view, imperfect but suitable reparations for 400 years of mistreatment. If reparations were made in the 1960s, then, why are we discussing them again? > [@Honesty](#): > > Blacks and Jews are different. One is told he is descended from Ham (See [Curse of Ham](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham)) while the other is told they are [God’s chosen people](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people). Could not one just as easily say one is told some of the more outlandish Afrocentrist theories, while the other is told they bear the Blood Curse as Christ-killers? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/329 "2014-06-06T21:44:45Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I want[ed] you to show you have the education and training that’s expected of a genealogy researcher who ostensibly performs extensive research on African-American genealogy. When did I ever claim to be a genealogy researcher who performs extensive research on African-American genealogy? Either you’ve got me confused with somebody else, or you are sticking words in my mouth. > [@Honesty](#): > > what do you think about genetic genealogy? That is, do you believe that blacks could be identified using genetic markers rather than wholly relying on Census and housing records. What are you seeking to prove with genetics (that is, what question are you hoping to answer via DNA)? Genetics can tell you who is related to whom; it won’t tell you whether they lived in a redlined neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/330 "2014-06-06T21:57:13Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > If reparations were made in the 1960s, then, why are we discussing them again? We’re discussing them _again_ because ya’ll dismantled those “reparations” immediately following MLK’s death (See _[Bakke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_University_of_California_v._Bakke)_, _[Gratz v. Bollinger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratz_v._Bollinger)_, _[Shuette v. BAMN](http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/12-682_j4ek.pdf)_, _[Shelby County v. Holder](http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-96_6k47.pdf)_, etc etc). > [@slash2k](#): > > Could not one just as easily say one is told some of the more outlandish Afrocentrist theories, while the other is told they bear the Blood Curse as Christ-killers? You could, but it would be all gum and no teeth. - Honesty P.S. Edit: I see your new post. Will respond to your most recent post tomorrow or tonight. I gotta go. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/331 "2014-06-06T21:57:24Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Can we request a name change for **Honesty**? Honesty has been here long enough to know that it is against the rules to announce who is on one’s Ignore list, so her Warning was earned. However trailing up the thread to find what prompted her statement, we find this direct insult against her. This, too, earns a Warning. Do not insult other posters. Do not use the usernames of other posters to create insults. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/332 "2014-06-08T07:04:35Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > What are you seeking to prove with genetics (that is, what question are you hoping to answer via DNA)? Genetics can tell you who is related to whom; it won’t tell you whether they lived in a redlined neighborhood. You dodged the question. You can prove the descendants of slavery and Jim Crow using genetics. The first step would be to exhume the slaves and people white people killed/mistreated. The next step would be to gather tissue samples and use a Southern Blot to determine the DNA sequence. The final step would be to match polymorphisms from the descendants of slavery with present day African-Americans. By using genetics, one can focus specifically on those descendants of slaves and offer them reparations. This could be done scientifically and I can prove it, however, whether it can be politically done is whole thing altogether. Keep in mind, you guys can’t even run a government without it shutting down every year. George Washington - you know that guy you guys put on a pedestal - would be terribly disappointed. Also, would you mind providing some of your didactic training as a genealogist? I am, for example, a biologist, and I could provide a list of pertinent science classes I’ve taken from undergrad to graduate school without revealing my identity. If you could do so, it would be appreciated. Thanks a bunch. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/333 "2014-06-08T07:35:50Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > You can prove the descendants of slavery and Jim Crow using genetics. The first step would be to exhume the slaves and people white people killed/mistreated. The next step would be to gather tissue samples and use a Southern Blot to determine the DNA sequence. The final step would be to match polymorphisms from the descendants of slavery with present day African-Americans. By using genetics, one can focus specifically on those descendants of slaves and offer them reparations. This could be done scientifically and I can prove it, however, whether it can be politically done is whole thing altogether. > > - Honesty There is only one proper response for your “first step”- :eek: Your second step would be _incredibly_ costly in both time and money. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/334 "2014-06-08T09:43:30Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > You can prove the descendants of slavery and Jim Crow using genetics. The first step would be to exhume the slaves and people white people killed/mistreated. The next step would be to gather tissue samples and use a Southern Blot to determine the DNA sequence. The final step would be to match polymorphisms from the descendants of slavery with present day African-Americans. By using genetics, one can focus specifically on those descendants of slaves and offer them reparations. This could be done scientifically and I can prove it, however, whether it can be politically done is whole thing altogether. And we’re back to thinking people deserve to get paid because their great, great, great grandfather had a shitty life. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/335 "2014-06-08T09:52:28Z")
Can you imagine what it would take in time and money to first find the graves of all those slaves, _then_ get permission to dig up _all_ those graves, and _then_ process all those DNA tests? Just this once, **Honesty** , instead of just waving off all this with a generic “Sure, it will be expensive, but…”, can you give us just a rough estimate of how much money all this might cost and how long it might take to complete the job? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/336 "2014-06-08T10:32:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you imagine what it would take in time and money to first find the graves of all those slaves, _then_ get permission to dig up _all_ those graves, and _then_ process all those DNA tests? Just this once, **Honesty** , instead of just waving off all this with a generic “Sure, it will be expensive, but…”, can you give us just a rough estimate of how much money all this might cost and how long it might take to complete the job? And please list your qualifications in the field of economics. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653/337 "2014-06-08T14:20:22Z")
Honesty has been suspended. I’m going to lock this down as it’s largely been Honesty vs all comers. If Honesty likes s/he can open a similar thread upon coming off suspension. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-democrats-and-republicans-refused-to-vote-on-h-r-40-for-25-years/689653.md?page=16)