# Why have immigration laws? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162 "2012-10-18T20:29:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/41 "2012-10-24T02:41:16Z")
I’m of the opinion that free trade should include workers. It doesn’t make sense to me that it should apply only to business, and not to labor. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/42 "2012-10-24T03:26:46Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > I’m of the opinion that free trade should include workers. It doesn’t make sense to me that it should apply only to business, and not to labor. Yes, but how do you define “workers”? Do you mean people who have existing employment agreements before they enter the country? Or simply free movement of people across nations? Because then you come back to the point by Milton Friedman above - that would be incompatible with a welfare state. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/43 "2012-10-24T04:41:41Z")
Why, exactly, is free movement of individuals incompatible with a welfare state? What makes natural-born citizens less of a burden on the welfare state than naturalized citizens? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/44 "2012-10-24T05:20:21Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Or simply free movement of people across nations? Because then you come back to the point by Milton Friedman above - that would be incompatible with a welfare state. Not if redistribution crossed national boundaries. We already have a “global” economy. We could have “global” welfare. Not to mention that as I said previously, it is possible to have some social democracy with somewhat open borders. So this sort of simplistic either-or doesn’t mean much. Do you have me on ignore or something? I agree with gatorslap. Free trade without free movement of labor isn’t really free trade. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/45 "2012-10-24T07:02:47Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Yes, but how do you define “workers”? Do you mean people who have existing employment agreements before they enter the country? Or simply free movement of people across nations? Because then you come back to the point by Milton Friedman above - that would be incompatible with a welfare state. Free movement of people. People don’t generally immigrate for a change in scenery. The vast majority of immigrants have come here to work, go to school, or start a business. I would have no problem with requiring immigrants do one of these things. I’m pretty sure that’s France’s policy towards immigrants from EU countries. As for welfare, the USA has a relatively limited welfare state as it is, but certainly, benefits should only be available to citizens and established resident aliens (the latter can be defined in a number of ways). I wonder what Milton Friedman thinks of the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/46 "2012-10-24T08:28:20Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > Free movement of people. People don’t generally immigrate for a change in scenery. The vast majority of immigrants have come here to work, go to school, or start a business. I would have no problem with requiring immigrants do one of these things. I’m pretty sure that’s France’s policy towards immigrants from EU countries. As for welfare, the USA has a relatively limited welfare state as it is, but certainly, benefits should only be available to citizens and established resident aliens (the latter can be defined in a number of ways). > > I wonder what Milton Friedman thinks of the EU. Do you have some stats? In any case, [low skill immigration is highly expensive](http://super-economy.blogspot.co.nz/2010/01/immigration-from-haiti-is-terrible-way.html). > [@](#): > > The most reliable estimate of the fiscal impacts of immigration was done by the prestigious National Research Council, NAC (the research arm of the National Academy of Sciences, NAS). > > Low skilled immigrants earn less than the average, pay less in taxes and receive more in public services such as health care, public housing, income aid etc. The NAC estimate is that the total net cost of each low-skilled immigrant for the US. State is $120,000 in 2009 dollars. (High skilled immigrants in contrast are a net fiscal benefit for the U.S). > > These figures may underestimate the costs. Since this study was made the costs of welfare services to lower income people has further expanded, especially Medicaid and S-CHIP, and may go further yet.. Also, it has long term costs as groups differ in academic outcomes. So [subsequent generations may not assimilate to the mean](http://www.nationalreview.com/nrd/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=). Net result in that case (eg [California](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023)) can be a loss of competitiveness. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/47 "2012-10-24T10:36:23Z")
I’m not sure how they will receive more in public services when I am proposing they not be eligible for public services. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/48 "2012-10-25T01:37:54Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > I’m not sure how they will receive more in public services when I am proposing they not be eligible for public services. So who pays the [hospital if they injure themselves](http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/2011/08/08/sherline-what-do-illegal-aliens-cost-hospitals/)? What if they have children? It’s not that simple to prevent them accessing public services. > [@](#): > > According to the California Hospital Association (CHA), illegal aliens cost hospitals across the state about $1.25 billion a year in unpaid medical care…The CHA recently stated that $26 million of those costs are absorbed in the eight hospitals in Ventura County alone.”

“Your health care and lives have been endangered by criminals from other nations–we call them illegal aliens. We must demand that every elected official either enforce the immigration laws or resign–illegal aliens are killing us.”

"In 2003, the American Southwest saw 77 hospitals enter bankruptcy due to unpaid medical bills incurred by illegal aliens. A staggering 84 hospitals in California have been forced to close their doors because of the growing crisis. Hospitals which manage to remain open, then pass the unpaid costs onto the rest of us, which translates into more out-of-pocket expenses and higher insurance premiums for all Americans." > > … state law requires all hospitals to treat anyone who presents to their Emergency Department, regardless of ability to pay. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/49 "2012-10-25T06:05:16Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > So who pays the [hospital if they injure themselves](http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/2011/08/08/sherline-what-do-illegal-aliens-cost-hospitals/)? That’s not a public service. It is a valid issue, but I’m not clear on how it becomes more of an issue than it already is. Are you suggesting that free movement across the US-Mexico border would result in an influx of medical tourism? > [@](#): > > What if they have children? It’s not that simple to prevent them accessing public services. You’re going to have to be less vague than “what if they have children?” ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/50 "2012-10-26T00:16:17Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > That’s not a public service. It is a valid issue, but I’m not clear on how it becomes more of an issue than it already is. Are you suggesting that free movement across the US-Mexico border would result in an influx of medical tourism? > You’re going to have to be less vague than “what if they have children?” Possibly, where would you rather receive medical treatment? And if you give birth in the US your kids would get citizenship right?(do you check pregnancy beforehand?). In any case, I provided it as an example of how massive costs can arise even if you say people won’t be eligibile for public services. In terms of “what if they have children”, I mean if they have children then there are additional costs - you can’t prevent them accessing health care or educational resources? Also, there’s the issue of reducing the lowering of human capital and competitiveness if groups don’t catch up. See David Frum’s [post](http://www.frumforum.com/the-future-costs-of-todays-cheap-labor/). ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/51 "2012-10-26T00:53:00Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Possibly, where would you rather receive medical treatment? Canada? > [@](#): > > And if you give birth in the US your kids would get citizenship right?(do you check pregnancy beforehand?). In any case, I provided it as an example of how massive costs can arise even if you say people won’t be eligibile for public services. > > In terms of “what if they have children”, I mean if they have children then there are additional costs - you can’t prevent them accessing health care or educational resources? Of course children born here are still citizens. But you’re just talking about population growth, at that point. And that would be a very good thing, IMO. More young working people are needed to support social services for the elderly. Look at Japan. I’m not really seeing these “massive costs”. Yes, education costs money, but in return we get more productive members of society. Assuming they stay, which most will. If you had large numbers of children coming here for school, and leaving the country once they got their diploma, that would indeed be very costly. But it’s not a realistic scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/52 "2012-10-28T01:28:44Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > Of course children born here are still citizens. But you’re just talking about population growth, at that point. And that would be a very good thing, IMO. More young working people are needed to support social services for the elderly. Look at Japan. > > I’m not really seeing these “massive costs”. Yes, education costs money, but in return we get more productive members of society. Assuming they stay, which most will. If you had large numbers of children coming here for school, and leaving the country once they got their diploma, that would indeed be very costly. But it’s not a realistic scenario. Summary of [costs](http://www.cairco.org/issues/economic-costs-immigration). In terms of getting more productive members of society - again, read Frum or Alexiev’s articles above. The newcomers are not achieving at the same level academically so the standard of living will invariably decline. > [@](#): > > At present, America can boast the best educated workforce in the world but in 50 years’ time, the majority of those workers will be Hispanic. If they are uneducated, what hope is there for American global competitiveness? > > There are also fears about how poor educational outcomes could lead to greater inequality in America. In a 2009 book, The Latino Education Crisis, professors of education Patricia Gandara and Frances Contreras warn that: “Latino students today perform academically at levels that will consign them to live as members of a permanent underclass… their situation is projected to worsen over time.” > **[Hispanic education in crisis](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15068692)** > > Latinos make up the fastest-growing segment of the American population, but are falling far behind in school ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/53 "2012-10-28T14:59:36Z")
I don’t really trust Frum on this kind of cultural issue, to be honest. He can be Mr Prejudice. But surely the problem is the ethnic caste system in the USA? Normalizing immigration, and getting rid of the idea that over 3% of the populace are “illegal” (and close to 20% are suspect) might help matters. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/54 "2012-10-28T16:03:29Z")
So that means abolishing immigration laws, no? Having immigration laws but amnestying everyone who breaks them just makes those who wait in line suckers. It rewards bad behavior and punishes good behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-immigration-laws/638162/56 "2012-11-30T10:03:54Z")
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