# Why haven't progressive ideas in California and elsewhere produced better results? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779 "2014-02-07T18:42:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779/61 "2014-02-14T19:34:27Z")
So, under Arnold, State revenues increased. I’ll take your word for it. And the debt tripled: "As of July 1, 2003, California had a total of $27.6 billion in general obligation bonds and a total of $23.2 billion in authorized but unissued bonds, according to then-state Treasurer Phil Angelides’ 2003 “debt affordability” report [PDF]. But the latest report [PDF] from current state Treasurer Bill Lockyer says the state now has $77.8 billion in outstanding general obligation bonds - nearly triple the amount of seven years ago - and an additional $42.8 in authorized but unissued bonds." (the ‘latest report’ was 2010) > **[CA State Debt TRIPLES Under Schwarzenegger](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ca-debt-triples-under-sch_n_754189)** > > CA State Debt TRIPLES Under Schwarzenegger Let us do some math: total debt when Arnold arrives: 27.6 + 23.2 = 50.8 total debt when Arnold leave: 77.8 +42.8 = 120.6 120.6 - 50.8 = 69.8 increase in overall debt in his 7 years. 7 years of 5.0 lost in car taxes = 35. 69.8 - 35 = 34.8 So, approximately half of the increased debt can reasonably be attributed to the car tax revenues lost (and I’m generously not including the extra cost of the debt incurred from the additional borrowing to cover the lost revenue). And you were _defending_ Arnold when you pointed out that during this debacle revenues to the State _rose_? Yeah, that’s some fine governoring, there…:rolleyes: also, if you knew anything about Calif State politics, you would know that the relevant issue isn’t **majorities** in the legislature, it is **supermajorities**. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779/62 "2014-02-18T17:11:53Z")
I have no intention of defending Arnold Schwarzenegger as governor. As the article I linked to shows, he presided over huge increases in spending. Cutting the car tax was a very minor thing. Throughout his term, California had one of the highest tax burdens in the country. [People and businesses have been leaving California for years](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324338604578326402863024028). Would a higher car tax, in addition to all the other high taxes in the state, have made it more attractive? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779/63 "2014-02-18T17:20:06Z")
What? An opinion piece in the _Wall Street Journal_? Well, that certainly settles _that!_ ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779/64 "2014-02-20T00:55:21Z")
So glad he considered so carefully the evidence I presented! ---
**Author:** ![Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Steely\_Dan\_Fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steely_Dan_Fan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779/65 "2014-02-20T01:17:13Z")
Mostly because the reactionaries are doing their damndest to nullify or eviscerate them when we get our rare opportunity to put them into practice. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779/66 "2014-02-20T01:47:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What? An opinion piece in the _Wall Street Journal_? Well, that certainly settles _that!_ If people are leaving, they aren’t taking their cars with them, since more and more of them are on the road I take to work. Not to mention the massive new condo complexes just finished or being built I go past. or the complaints about rising rents in San Francisco. Silicon Valley is a ghost town I tell you. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779/67 "2014-02-20T07:29:56Z")
Population, 2013 estimate 38,332,521 Population, 2012 estimate 37,999,878 Population, 2010 (April 1) estimates base 37,253,959 Population, percent change, April 1, 2010 to July 1, 2013 2.9% NOT because I think ITR will notice that he’s wrong _again_, but for anyone else following along at home. Took literally less than 1 minute. Frankly, if about 20% of our population would disappear overnight (rapture, anyone?), that would work pretty well for the rest of us, IMHO. I shudder every time we have great weather during the Rose Parade and Bowl. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779/68 "2014-02-23T08:05:44Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > **And California is something of an outlier because of political, geographical, and social issues that aren’t easily labelled: it votes blue** , but it has large conservative populations with political power. It’s kinda an inverse of, say, Texas or Arizona, both of which have liberal/progressive populations with considerable economic–but almost no political–power. Demographics. It has a large hispanic population. If you look at socio-economic outcomes Demographics also explain a lot of the issues in the original post. You have some of the highest earners, with Hollywood & Silicon Valley, but also a large growing group who have lower levels of educational attainment and earnings prospects. It will be interesting to see if the minimum wage law, ironically being put forward by mildly conservative Ron Unz, will go through. Could help with the inequality & poverty issues to some extent. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779/69 "2014-02-23T16:16:41Z")
I found [a long article in The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/06/the-fixer/309324/) about Jerry Brown, looking to understand how he has managed to turn Schwarzenegger’s $27 billion deficit into a surplus. Certainly the improved economic climate has helped that, but the author, James Fallows, contends that it was also due to legislative policies initiated by Brown. So. Progressive idea in California have produced better results. I’m curious what the counterargument to that will look like. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779/70 "2014-02-23T16:36:41Z")
What counterargument? ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779/71 "2014-02-25T02:55:54Z")
Apparently sometimes, at least, when ignorance is fought it disappears. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-progressive-ideas-in-california-and-elsewhere-produced-better-results/680779.md?page=3)