# Why haven't Syria and Iran given Hizbollah any Stingers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2006, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327 "2006-08-04T14:25:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/1 "2006-08-04T14:25:23Z")
We know Iran has [US-built “Stinger” handheld anti-aircraft missiles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIM-92_Stinger) because…(awkward pause)…well, you know. And Syria is said to have received the equivalent [Russian “Igla” missiles.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igla) Both countries are believed to be providing arms to Hizbollah yet Israeli aircraft fly all over Lebanon unmolested so no surface-to-air missiles appear to have been included. Why not? Could it be that Syria and Iran are happy their proxies are fighting Israel but would prefer they didn’t survive the war? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/2 "2006-08-04T14:51:38Z")
It could be that they feel they need to keep defensive weapons to protect their own citizens. But they have no problem giving Hezbollah offensive weapons to use to harass Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/3 "2006-08-04T14:57:18Z")
Probably for the same reason guided anti-tank missiles are not used much by terrorists. These weapons are not simple to use, and only marginally effective (your wikipedia link gives an effectiveness of around 20-40%) even when used by experienced operators. I’m going to guess that the chances of you hitting an aircraft on your very first try with the missile (and presumably terrorists do not often get practice runs with these things) is pretty low. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/4 "2006-08-04T15:07:32Z")
However, news reports this morning said Hizbollah was using wire-guided missiles against Israeli tanks. As for the Syrians and Iranians saving the good stuff for themselves, they have plenty of money and the former Soviet Union has porous borders and sympathetic natives so even if the Russian government is not inclined to sell them more Iglas, which I don’t assume, there are plenty still available. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/5 "2006-08-04T15:29:26Z")
Perhaps, but wire guided missiles, which have to be manually guided to their targets, are even more difficult to use effectively than Stingers, which are fire and forget. It is much cheaper and more effective to just stack anti-tank mines on top of each other and bury them under a road. It’s not out of the question that Hezbollah fighters receive adequate training in Iran, however. Since Hezbollah is effectively bankrolled by the Iranian intelligence service. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/6 "2006-08-04T15:44:16Z")
The other thing is that munitions are subject to entropy like everything else. A simple weapon like a rifle can be used with a little refurbishment after sitting in a box for 100 years. A Stinger might not be in very good shape after sitting in a box for 25 years. If there’s any tendancy for the rocket propellant to separate under gravity they might be completely useless as anything more than bunker busters. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/7 "2006-08-04T16:21:51Z")
As stated in the Stinger Wiki, yes, they have a limited shelf life without regular maintenence, but Iran and Syria have people who can do it. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/8 "2006-08-04T18:59:19Z")
Or perhaps Iran and Syria realize that the first use of a Stinger may very well cause a huge escalation in the current conflict, and they really don’t want to go there, … just yet, if at all. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/9 "2006-08-04T19:19:21Z")
> [@kawaiitentaclebeast](#): > > Probably for the same reason guided anti-tank missiles are not used much by terrorists. These weapons are not simple to use, and only marginally effective (your wikipedia link gives an effectiveness of around 20-40%) even when used by experienced operators. I’m going to guess that the chances of you hitting an aircraft on your very first try with the missile (and presumably terrorists do not often get practice runs with these things) is pretty low. The Afgan resistance forces supposedly used them to great effect against the Soviets in the 80’s. I imagine that Hezbollah is at least as well trained as those gurrellahs, and I imagine even shooting down one or two helicoptors successfully would be deemed a victory by HB’s leaders, as well as force the Israelis to change their tactics. Of course Israeli helecopters are probably more hi-tech then circa 1980’s Soviet models, perhaps they are less prone to being shot down? I wouldn’t imagine that Syria would give HB weapons they didn’t think would work, thus exposing their own arsenals as likely ineffective. > [@lemur866](#): > > . If there’s any tendancy for the rocket propellant to separate under gravity they might be completely useless as anything more than bunker busters. Would a stinger be more prone to deteration then the rockets provided by Iran? I would imagine rockets and missiles are more complex and perishable weapons then a stinger, but I’m just guessing. > [@Duckster](#): > > Or perhaps Iran and Syria realize that the first use of a Stinger may very well cause a huge escalation in the current conflict, and they really don’t want to go there, … just yet, if at all. I hardly see why shooting down military aircraft would be deemed more provocative then the current indescrimanate bombing of cities by rocket fire. Other WAG as to reasons: 1. Iran and Syria only have so many stingers and want to keep them in reserve for thier own militaries. (on preview, what cmkellar said) 2. Syria doesn’t want to arm HB with weapons that HB might in turn give to a possible future Shia uprising in Syria. Iran goes along with this to keep Syria’s support. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/10 "2006-08-04T19:45:56Z")
> [@](#): > > The Afgan resistance forces supposedly used them to great effect against the Soviets in the 80’s. I imagine that Hezbollah is at least as well trained as those gurrellahs, and I imagine even shooting down one or two helicoptors successfully would be deemed a victory by HB’s leaders, as well as force the Israelis to change their tactics. This is a matter of some dispute. It is certainly CLAIMED that the introduction of the Stinger helped turn the tide of the war, but most Soviet sources indicate that the Stinger wasn’t very effective at all, and after their initial suprise, the Soviets quickly adopted tactics and countermeasures that reduced the effectiveness of Stingers greatly. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/11 "2006-08-04T19:53:13Z")
Giving Hezbollah anti-air or anti-armor would just be throwing good money after bad. Israel isn’t going to continue a push into either Syria or Iran, and Hezbollah is going to lose anyway. Knocking out a few Israeli tanks isn’t going to benefit Syria/Iran at all. If the lines stabilize and hold reasonably still for some reason, I imagine we’ll start seeing more of it show up in Hezbollah hands, if only to keep Israel’s attention on Lebanon and not on Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/12 "2006-08-04T19:58:21Z")
> [@kawaiitentaclebeast](#): > > This is a matter of some dispute. It is certainly CLAIMED that the introduction of the Stinger helped turn the tide of the war, but most Soviet sources indicate that the Stinger wasn’t very effective at all, and after their initial suprise, the Soviets quickly adopted tactics and countermeasures that reduced the effectiveness of Stingers greatly. Fair enough. But even if we assume that the same will hold here, I think that shooting down even a few helicoptors and forcing a change in Israeli tactics would count as a victory in the minds of HB and thier Arab supporters. Surely Syria and Iran wouldn’t mind knowing how effective thier weapons are against Israeli helicoptors. And regardless of the reality, the stinger is famous for being the weapon used by the mujahadeen to defeat the Soviets. Having HB shoot down even one heli with a stinger would draw an analogy between the Israeli/HB and Soviets/Mujahadeen in a lot of minds, and thus be a propaganda victory even if strategically its just a fly bite to the Israelis. So why not throw HB a few of them? At worse, it would seem a fairly low cost gamble. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/13 "2006-08-04T20:48:50Z")
Here we go: [from here](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060804/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictiranhezbollahweapons) > [@](#): > > According to Jane’s Defence Weekly, Iranian authorities have supplied the militia with Iranian-made Noor radar-guided anti-ship cruise missiles and Chinese QW-1 (Vanguard) shoulder-launched SAMs. > > Russian-made SAMs will reportedly be supplied at a later date. Not exactly the most authorative sourcing on the article, but it seems probable. Of course it raises the question of why Iran didn’t give these to HB prior to the current crisis, as I’d imagine that even if they ship the SAMs over tomorrow, it will be somewhere between really hard and impossible to train troops to use them and deploy them while they’re activley being bombed/invaded. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/14 "2006-08-04T21:18:50Z")
A shoulder-launched [Vanguard?](http://www.astronomers.net/space_rockets/vanguard_rocket.htm) :eek: Yeesh, the Japanese have NOTHING on the Chinese when it comes to miniaturization. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/15 "2006-08-04T21:40:50Z")
Possibly for exactly the same reasion the US was reticent to give them to Afghan rebels during the Russian occupation. It would break down “plausible deniablity” it one thing for everyone to “know” you are supporting a particular group. Its quite another to have undeniable proof in the form of a captured weapon system that could only have come from your country. In the case of the U.S. the opportunity to give the soviets a bloody nose evenutally overcame any doubts (though only after first trying to make do with, less effective but more deniable, Blowpipe missiles). But there is not such a big imperative for Iran and Syria. ---
**Author:** ![ryobserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@ryobserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryobserver)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/16 "2006-08-04T22:44:15Z")
Re shelf life of Stingers: I don’t have a cite, but this was discussed in the news during the run-up to the war in Afghanistan after 9/11. The worry then was that Stingers left over from the fight against the Soviets would be used to shoot down American planes. At the time it was reported that the Stinger’s targeting device requires a battery; like virtually all batteries, it runs out of juice if it sits in storage for long enough; and being a Pentagon-commissioned battery, it’s a custom-made job you can’t just replace with something from Radio Shack. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/17 "2006-08-04T22:48:10Z")
The “Stinger” argument is a moot point now, since the Iranians have easy access to much more advanced Russian/Chinese variants. In any case, the Israelis have been dealing with the MANPAD threat since 1973, I don’t think they’re going to be caught unaware like the Soviets were in Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/18 "2006-08-04T23:04:07Z")
> [@kawaiitentaclebeast](#): > > Perhaps, but wire guided missiles, which have to be manually guided to their targets, are even more difficult to use effectively than Stingers, which are fire and forget. It is much cheaper and more effective to just stack anti-tank mines on top of each other and bury them under a road. > > It’s not out of the question that Hezbollah fighters receive adequate training in Iran, however. Since Hezbollah is effectively bankrolled by the Iranian intelligence service. Excluding the earliest models, wire-guided antitank missiles are not that hard to use. All the operator has to do is to keep the cross-hairs in the optical sight on the target while the missile flies downrange. The guidance electronics for the missile will keep it aligned with the optical sight. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/19 "2006-08-04T23:07:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Excluding the earliest models, wire-guided antitank missiles are not that hard to use. All the operator has to do is to keep the cross-hairs in the optical sight on the target while the missile flies downrange. The guidance electronics for the missile will keep it aligned with the optical sight. Well, maybe I’m just a clumsy oaf, but this is a lot harder than it sounds. With a lot of practice I’m sure I can get pretty good, but I can’t imagine anyone hitting anything on their very first try. Which model of missile are you talking about specifically? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327/20 "2006-08-04T23:09:55Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > 1. Syria doesn’t want to arm HB with weapons that HB might in turn give to a possible future Shia uprising in Syria. Iran goes along with this to keep Syria’s support. Yeah only a nation led by REAL FUCKING IDIOTS would give weapons to groups or nations that might turn around and use those weapons against them. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-havent-syria-and-iran-given-hizbollah-any-stingers/367327.md?page=2)