# Why/how did the default English pronoun become feminine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 26, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351 "2008-06-26T20:05:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/21 "2008-06-26T22:02:03Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] . . . It’s only sexist when you use both ‘he’ and ‘she’, and use them with a pattern. Eg doctors are 'he’s and nurses 'she’s. If everyone always used ‘he’, it could never possibly be sexist. [/QUOTE] Actually, that can be considered to be ‘female deletion’, a process of acknowledging the male state of being as being normal and the female as being auxiliary and not necessary to mention. There’s also a history of courts deciding whether ‘he’ includes or doesen’t include women in non-systematic ways, thereby excluding them (us?) from professional institutions while including them in penalizing regulations. Oddly enough, the first company I came across that did the switch the gender of the generic pronoun thing on a regular basis was White Wolf. And Alex, I can tell you, if you’ve been excluded from the “generic” pronouns all your life and then suddenly get included, it’s quite a lift. I remember reading about college classes of decades ago, where when the idea was broached in class, most of the students would claim that the gender of the pronouns was no big deal and that there was no reason for ‘those feminists’ to get upset. Then if the teacher proposed a test and switched to using only female pronouns, the male students would react strongly, some of them marching out of the room at being so disrespected. So there is a repressing effect to an exclusively male pseudogeneric pronoun. Whether it’s a small effect or not depends on circumstances. Personally, I tend to use ‘they’, and if it came to a vote, would probably vote for it. But I have to confess, I really get a kick out of female pseudogenerics. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/22 "2008-06-26T22:10:42Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] Actually, I think many people who use ‘he’ and ‘she’ “50/50” are guilty of constructing their own patterns with their usage. Those patterns are designed, in contrast, to be the opposite of statistical trends. A sort of ‘fire with fire’ propaganda war that may be worthy, but ain’t exactly gender neutral. [/QUOTE] Yep, that’s me. Most often when I’m writing about “the doctor”, “your lawyer” or even “God”, I’ll intentionally use “she”. I **don’t** , however, intentionally use “he” for negative or lowly things, just as it feels natural to do so. And yes, I do it because I think that even a little subtle inconsequential reference to traditional male roles as females is a tweak at history and a good thing for our collective psyches. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/23 "2008-06-26T22:13:30Z")
I’m an old school guy, and was also automatically included in the generic “he.” When people started twitching about it, I thought it was silly, and also found it difficult to have to write “he or she” every time I really wanted to write “he.” But “she” is just as much of a problem if “he” is. So, at least when I can, I’ve tried to compromise by using “s/he.” It’s the quickest way around what apparently is going to be an impossible wicket. “Their” actually does sound ok sometimes, and works pretty well, but it grates against my ancient grammar instruction, so I rarely use it. Besides, sometimes, it sounds absolutely wrong. I’d hate to see it become common because of those cases. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/24 "2008-06-26T22:15:01Z")
I’m guilty. I had a few professors in college (UC Santa Cruz) who used “she” exclusively, and I liked the effect. I was in a very male-dominated field. The first time I read a “she-dominant” text, I did a double take after every sentence. It was only then that I realized that my mental image of just about every job and role in my field was exclusively male. And that really I was viewing males as the norm and females (including myself) as some kind of “other”. It really twisted my mind to think about those jobs as defaulting to female. And that made me think harder about my own thought process as well as the text itself. Since then I’ve tried to use “she” whenever possible. And I’ll give “he” equal time just as soon as everyone else gives “she” equal time. _edited for typo_ ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/25 "2008-06-26T22:22:50Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] . . . Actually, I think many people who use ‘he’ and ‘she’ “50/50” are guilty of constructing their own patterns with their usage. Those patterns are designed, in contrast, to be the opposite of statistical trends. A sort of ‘fire with fire’ propaganda war that may be worthy, but ain’t exactly gender neutral. [/QUOTE] How can a 50/50 split not be neutral? Neither is getting priority. Yes, it’s a deliberate usage, done for non-grammatical reasons. Calling it guilty presumes that a person’s word choices must all be non-social or non-political in nature. Yes, it’s propaganda. The subversive idea being promoted is that women are normal. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/26 "2008-06-26T22:25:56Z")
[QUOTE=Bosstone] The only time I ever see ‘she’ used is when there’s multiple sections (examples, word problems, etc) to a document, and then it usually alternates with ‘he’ per section. [/QUOTE] Per section? I alternate them per usage. Some people get confused and point to where the chaircreature was female in this sentence but male in the next. I accuse them of sexism and it usually shuts them up. In reality, I swap between them in a somewhat more coherent manner, but am developing a taste for the modern singular use of “they.” My English-major daughter disagrees, preferring the masculine pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/27 "2008-06-26T22:29:06Z")
Let’s all remember one thing. There is NO “default” pronoun in English. Not “he” “she” “it” “they” “s/he” or anything else. What we’re discussing here is style. The nice thing about style is that it can be adapted as needed. For example: Bylaw 1.2: “If the corporate director files a complaint, the complaint shall be heard forwith.” Bylaw 1.2: “If the corporate director files a complaint, the director shall be heard forwith.” Bylaw 1.2: “If the corporate director files a complaint, that person shall be heard forwith.” Bylaw 1.2: “A complaint filed by the corporate director shall be heard forwith.” ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/28 "2008-06-26T22:32:58Z")
I figure that singular “they” is a stand-in for “he or she; that is, one of _them_,” therefore “they.” ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/29 "2008-06-26T22:35:19Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > I was in a very male-dominated field. The first time I read a “she-dominant” text, I did a double take after every sentence. It was only then that I realized that my mental image of just about every job and role in my field was exclusively male. Isn’t that what you’d expect anyway, in a male dominated field? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/30 "2008-06-26T22:39:34Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] It’s only sexist when you use both ‘he’ and ‘she’, and use them with a pattern. Eg doctors are 'he’s and nurses 'she’s. If everyone always used ‘he’, it could never possibly be sexist… [/QUOTE] Can we still refer to ships as ‘she’? 😉 [QUOTE=Yllaria] I remember reading about college classes of decades ago, where when the idea was broached in class, most of the students would claim that the gender of the pronouns was no big deal and that there was no reason for ‘those feminists’ to get upset. Then if the teacher proposed a test and switched to using only female pronouns, the male students would react strongly, some of them marching out of the room at being so disrespected. [/QUOTE] I think the crucial words here are ‘of decades ago’. Just look at how much society’s norms, and the laws relating to to, have changed since then. I suspect that if anybody tried the same ‘experiment’ again, they’d have a bored bunch of students thinking ‘oh look, they’re making some laborious point about gender and language’. > [@even sven](#): > > I was in a very male-dominated field. The first time I read a “she-dominant” text, I did a double take after every sentence. It was only then that I realized that my mental image of just about every job and role in my field was exclusively male. And that really I was viewing males as the norm and females (including myself) as some kind of “other”. It really twisted my mind to think about those jobs as defaulting to female. And that made me think harder about my own thought process as well as the text itself. Was the text in question about gender roles? If not, then the deliberate use of this pronoun was obviously distracting you from what was actually being said. Do you not worry that this happens to things you write? > [@Yllaria](#): > > How can a 50/50 split not be neutral? Neither is getting priority. Yes, it’s a deliberate usage, done for non-grammatical reasons. Calling it guilty presumes that a person’s word choices must all be non-social or non-political in nature. Yes, it’s propaganda. The subversive idea being promoted is that women are normal. Yes, it’s propaganda. So don’t use it in writing that should be level-headed, even-handed, balanced or impartial. If you disagree, tell me that “England expects that every Englishwoman does her duty” doesn’t change Nelson’s message. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/31 "2008-06-26T23:16:49Z")
Women can’t get deleted. That’s a dumb thing to say. The most that can happen is women can get relocated. But, if every parent and maid and whatever else the oppressed woman does was referred to as ‘he’ what do you think would happen? Would everyone forget women exist? Or will a word lose its connotation, the way guys named Dick don’t get confused with giant roosters? All I’m saying that neutrality is about a lack of patterns. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/32 "2008-06-26T23:21:01Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Was the text in question about gender roles? If not, then the deliberate use of this pronoun was obviously distracting you from what was actually being said. Do you not worry that this happens to things you write? [/QUOTE] Meh. I know it does, and there are times when I’ll use “he” when it is extremely distracting to use “she.” But you know my being a women caused a moment of distraction in my nearly-all-male classes, in work-related functions, etc. If my very existence as my gender is going to be distracting, why shouldn’t it be distracting in my writing, too? I’d much rather be distracting and though-provoking than forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/33 "2008-06-26T23:36:33Z")
[QUOTE=even sven] Meh. I know it does, and there are times when I’ll use “he” when it is extremely distracting to use “she.” [/quote] Oh, come on, you surely knew I was going to ask how often you found ‘she’ similarly distracting?! > [@](#): > > If my very existence as my gender is going to be distracting …it’s not. Who said it was? > [@](#): > > …I’d much rather be distracting and though-provoking than forgotten. Would you rather be “A distracting and thought-provoking female author”, or “A distracting and thought-provoking author”? Or how about “A distracting and thought-provoking female authoress”… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/34 "2008-06-26T23:58:03Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] “It” is awful as a gender-neutral personal pronoun. Does it even have a history of being used as such? [/QUOTE] I was joking. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/35 "2008-06-27T01:08:44Z")
> [@](#): > > I think the crucial words here are ‘of decades ago’. Just look at how much society’s norms, and the laws relating to to, have changed since then. I suspect that if anybody tried the same ‘experiment’ again, they’d have a bored bunch of students thinking ‘oh look, they’re making some laborious point about gender and language’. I’m not sure what you’re trying to imply with this. Because ‘we’ve come a long way, baby’ =! ‘male pseudogeneric pronouns have no effect on speakers.’ As I said before - in some circumstances, the effect may be small. I haven’t been able to pick it out, do you have any problem with ‘they’? > [@](#): > > Yes, it’s propaganda. So don’t use it in writing that should be level-headed, even-handed, balanced or impartial. If you disagree, tell me that “England expects that every Englishwoman does her duty” doesn’t change Nelson’s message. I don’t. I’m pointing out the effect of ‘he’ on speakers and readers, which you seem to be pooh-poohing. In this decade. And changing quotes is a separate thing entirely. You’re slipping into hyperbole. I also think that saying > [@](#): > > ..it’s not. Who said it was? shows a lack of understanding of the situation that **even sven** is describing. In fact it’s a complete denial of what she experienced and what many other women experienced. When your gender completely shuts down your co-workers ablility to, you know, work with you, then spending time on propaganda in an attempt to get them to get over it could be time well spent. I’m shyer than that. I’ll use ‘they’ or rewrite sentences. But if someone else is doing it, I’ll enjoy it. And I’ll shake my head over people who find it ‘distracting’. How hard can it be to adjust to? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/36 "2008-06-27T01:26:50Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] Btw, to repeat a conclusion I developed in a previous thread: It’s only sexist when you use both ‘he’ and ‘she’, and use them with a pattern. Eg doctors are 'he’s and nurses 'she’s. If everyone always used ‘he’, it could never possibly be sexist. [/quote] Since we _don’t_ always use he for the third person pronoun, but rather, use “she” when referring to specific female persons, then you agree that using “he” for cases in which the gender is not specified is sexist, correct? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/37 "2008-06-27T01:27:37Z")
My older brother, a lawyer, mentioned to me that in law school, all generic third person pronouns were she and her. This apparently changed a decade or more ago. I’ve read books where the writer changed from “he” to “she” each chapter. Worked fine. Didn’t bother or distract me. And I just can’t agree that defaulting to a masculine pronoun is no big deal. It is. It’s exclusive. It’s deletion. If it were happening to the men (who are unhappy enough when they’re only shown in negative circumstances), they would scream blue bloody murder. Hell, just tossing in a few "she"s is enough to rile them. Think it’s silly? Think it’s petty? Think it shouldn’t matter? Then, just for argument’s sake, let’s reverse the third person singular generic pronoun to a constant she and her for the next several hundred years. We won’t mention the male pronoun in generic terms at all, except maybe to refer to cars, since ships are always “she”. Oh, heck, I won’t even insist on several hundred years. Let’s do it for a decade, and then you can tell us that it’s silly, petty, and not at all exclusionary. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/38 "2008-06-27T01:28:13Z")
Personally, I’m secretly hoping that a new trend that has started in inner city Baltimore will take hold: “yo” as the gender-neutral pronoun. “Yo is a good guy.” (I imagine they distinguish it from “you” by pronouncing the latter “ya.”) I read about this somewhere (sorry I don’t remember where, probably “The Week” magazine, which cribbed it from some other publication) and as a fan of HBO’s _The Wire_, I found it delightful. (They never used “yo” in quite that way in the show, however.) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/39 "2008-06-27T01:30:53Z")
[QUOTE=phouka] My older brother, a lawyer, mentioned to me that in law school, all generic third person pronouns were she and her. This apparently changed a decade or more ago. [/quote] Did you find some corroboration of this claim? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351/40 "2008-06-27T01:32:28Z")
[QUOTE=commasense] Personally, I’m secretly hoping that a new trend that has started in inner city Baltimore will take hold: “yo” as the gender-neutral pronoun. “Yo is a good guy.” (I imagine they distinguish it from “you” by pronouncing the latter “ya.”) [/QUOTE] I would’ve thought they would be distinct anyway, with “yo” rhyming with “snow”, while “you”, even in the standard non-reduced pronunciation, rhymes with “flu”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-how-did-the-default-english-pronoun-become-feminine/454351.md?page=3)