# Why I am against the death penalty. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 24, 2002, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395 "2002-09-24T02:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/41 "2002-09-24T19:59:25Z")
Hell, wring, I screwed up and put too much sugar in my coffee this morning. Is that an argument against the death penalty too? Corroboration to a confession does not need to be provided in any particular form. ISTR that details of the crime scene (unknowingly provided to him by the investigators) corroborated his confession. The whole Henry Lee Lucas investigation was a clusterfuck of errors, however, neatly illustrating my point that it takes more than one mistake to execute an innocent person. And of course, Henry Lee’s sentence was commuted to life. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/42 "2002-09-24T20:09:07Z")
**John Corrado** and many others are opposed to the death penalty because mistakes can happen. Recent reviews based on DNA evidence largely undisputed in cases of exclusion are bearing this out. However if we as a society are capable of humanely dealing with with other species( that have the inclination to kill humans) by incarceration or banishment, I see no reason why the treatment can’t extend to those members of our society who are fucked up enough to act like predatory animals. But this attitude also demands lifetime imprisonment for murderers for the protection of society whether the need is real or only perceived. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/43 "2002-09-24T20:10:12Z")
I don’t think the issue (maybe I’m wrong) was that one single mistake will end up w/an innocent convicted. BUt, all it **would** take is a case that was splashy, a prosecutor willing to cut corners because he ‘knew’ the guy was guilty (see, doesn’t even have to be a bad motive), and that one little mistake. let alone the fact that many dp cases are tried by counsel (not you 😉 ) that are less than, um, good? You are taking quite a generous view on the Lucas Case. “unknowningly” presented evidence by the interrogators? “Henry, didn’t you pick up the girl wearing orange socks” (oops #1) and I killed her, yep. “But first you raped her, right?” (oops #2) No, I don’t have transcripts, but the investigators in that case weren’t just out of cop school. If you don’t think they know exactly what questions to ask, w/o disclosing details, then Texas justice is in a sorrier condition than I ever believed. (My take is that the investigators got caught up in the whole media star thing, seeing ole’ Henry Lee as their ticket to bigger and better things. Yes, his sentence was commuted, but it took a hell of a lot. IIRC, the prosecutor was still kicking and screeching that 'well, jsut ‘cause he was in Florida, doesn’t mean that he couldn’t have jumped in a car, driven a couple thousand miles, killed her then driven the couple thousand back’. What were the odds that Henry Lee was actually **working** somewhere far enough away to demonstrate his innocence, and that the records would still exist years later about his time, **and** that anyone would care enough about him to track it down? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/44 "2002-09-24T20:21:07Z")
**Anthracite** – Given that all of those countries (yep, even Nigeria at regional level) operate a form of Islamic Law, the liklihood of it being potentially “misleading” – ie legal similarity with the US - escaped my radar. But let me put it another way: Of all the countries of the world not relying on a harsh interpretation of Islamic Law, the US is the only one that permits the execution of juveniles. However, and FTR, the law in the US has recently changed so that mentally unwell people can no longer be executed – which is obviously a positive (not in an AC/DC way…obviously,). Change is possible. Addressing your particular point as I only can (ie. from a personal perspective), I’d hope keeping such company would, at least, set the alarms bells off for me – not particularly because of the company we’d be keeping (per se), but rather with whom (my) country was _not_ keeping company: One can identify many common themes in the laws of both Common and Roman Law jurisdictions that _reflect the ethical and moral values_ of Christianity and/or a _common cultural heritage_ which is not shared (so widely) with those countries practicing Islamic Law: For example, the relationship between the English and US Common Law can be easily traced to those of the US Founding Fathers who were English and/or English trained lawyers. In short; a common religious heritage, a common cultural heritage and a common legal heritage. Ditto Australia, Canada, NZ and a brace of other jurisdictions around the world, none of who have the death sentence let alone including juveniles. With mainland Europe ‘we’ also share much and, although Roman Law tends to paint broader brushes than does the more precise English Common Law, there is also much in the way of shared values. Thus, the US, on this issue, is outside the ‘fold’. That would be fine (for me) without the nagging concern that comes from believing that there aren’t a whole lot of educated, middle-class _juveniles_ either on Death Row or dead by execution – Juvenile Death Row, as best I understand, is the preserve of the disenfranchised: Poorly educated, poorly housed, poorly raised, drug, taking, opportunity bereft… certainly from what I would consider (to be) a mainstream European perspective (generic social-democrat-ish), these guys were already looking for ways to escape their lives long before they found their way to Death Row. Those two factors/sensibilities then combine with what I also consider to be a commonly held belief - that, at 17, ‘we’ (particularly young men (nb. still emerging educational data)) are still some way from achieving/acquiring fully developed maturity: Yep, they do know right from wrong but they don’t always yet know how to handle what life has thrown at them because they are not mature enough - lots of leeway there for emotional reaction…I’m talking about posters, not the juveniles… But sure, ultimately, it’s all a personal judgement and individual philosophy; You’re, presumably, influenced by your experiences and culture, as am I. BTW **minty** If any comparison is made, I wouldn’t, for very obvious reasons, compare the US judicial system with an Islamic Code, but would instinctively lean to a comparison between the quality of representation possible from an over-busy public defenders office in downtown Texas pre-original trial vs. a privately funded defence. But not having experienced either environment, I’d be guessing. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/45 "2002-09-24T21:35:42Z")
By “unknowingly,” wring, I meant that they were not feeding Lucas details with the intention of nailing an innocent person. The investigators were inexcusably stupid in their questioning, but there’s little or no evidence they acted with the intent to condemn a man they did not believe committed those crimes. > [@](#): > > BUt, all it **would** take is a case that was splashy, a prosecutor willing to cut corners because he ‘knew’ the guy was guilty (see, doesn’t even have to be a bad motive), and that one little mistake. I strongly disagree. But I’d be happy to evaluate a real life example of a person wrongly convicted on a single mistake comparable to the clerical error in the OP. L\_C, I’d love to respond to your guess, but for obvious reasons, I cannot. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/46 "2002-09-24T23:40:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max Torque \* > You’re looking at that the wrong way, **wring**. The fact that people are occasionally sentenced to death, but are later found not guilty and released, is proof that the checks and balances built into the system work! Damn, **Max** , you almost sound convincing! 🙂 [sub]That _was_ intended as a joke, right?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![fierra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58956e/32.png) [@fierra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fierra)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/47 "2002-09-25T00:58:26Z")
I’m from the UK, from **your** culture, LC. I say who cares if someone is from a disadvantaged background, there are hundreds or thousands of people from disadvantaged backgrounds who haven’t made those choices and haven’t committed those crimes. Their background doesn’t matter to me, but their actions do. It is not their background that makes them a murderer or a rapist, but their actions. Anyone who claims otherwise is amazingly biased against people from poorer backgrounds. Likewise, if they commit that crime 1 day before their 18th birthday, I don’t see why the punishment should be any different from if they had committed it the next day. If they had raped or killed a relative of mine, I cannot see my feelings towards their punishment being any different based on one day of age “Oh, they’re only 17, they’re just a kid, yeah, they wouldn’t have done it next year, let’s let them go”. Not only that, but because of that argument about people making mistakes when they are younger that they wouldn’t make if they were older, the US if they are underage, permanently expunges it from their record & lock those records when they turn 18, so that if a similar crime happens next year, in their neighbourhood, the information cannot even be used when the police call in likely suspects with similar crimes on their rapsheets as a way of shortening their investigations. In the UK, although we don’t have the death penalty, a court can decide, based on evidence put before it, whether or not to try an accused juvenile as an adult, or as a child, and I do not see that this case is any different, except in the extremity of the punishment. If the death sentence is right, then it is right for anyone, regardless of age, who can be shown to be cognisant of their actions and of the actions expected of them within society, a knowledge of right and wrong, if you will. If the death penalty is wrong, it is wrong for everyone, regardless of age, or background or understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/48 "2002-09-25T01:28:22Z")
That’s Tuttle, damn it! ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/49 "2002-09-25T01:47:29Z")
Tuttle was the one they wanted, but Buttle was the one they arrested and ‘processed’. ---
**Author:** ![Ins\_Outs\_What-have-yous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8797f3/32.png) [@Ins\_Outs\_What-have-yous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ins_Outs_What-have-yous)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/50 "2002-09-25T02:18:29Z")
John Corrado in the OP: > [@](#): > > Let me give you an illustrative piece as to why I am both a staunch Republican and against the death penalty. One reason I am against the death penalty is because state governments spend more money by executing a prisoner rather than letting him/her rot in prison for life. The higher costs are related to lawyers’ fees in the death sentencing phase of a trial and the ensuing appeals. :mad: [Death Penalty info link](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs2.html) > [@](#): > > The most comprehensive study in the country found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life (Duke University, May 1993.) On a national basis, these figures translate to an extra cost of over $1 billion dollars spent since 1976 on the death penalty. The study,“The Costs of Processing Murder Cases in North Carolina” is available on line at [www-pps.aas.duke.edu/people/faculty/cook/comnc.pdf](http://www-pps.aas.duke.edu/people/faculty/cook/comnc.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/51 "2002-09-25T11:46:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fierra \* > I’m from the UK, from **your** culture, LC. I say who cares if someone is from a disadvantaged background, there are hundreds or thousands of people from disadvantaged backgrounds who haven’t made those choices and haven’t committed those crimes. Their background doesn’t matter to me, but their actions do. It is not their background that makes them a murderer or a rapist, but their actions. Anyone who claims otherwise is amazingly biased against people from poorer backgrounds. The law cares. FWIW, Judges used to be encouraged to take backgrounds and circumstances into account when weighing the appropriate sentence and tariffs in relation to juveniles (it came as part of the whole ‘Social Reports’ thingy ordered, when deemed appropriate, after conviction but prior to sentencing). That was when I knew the ropes. Nowadays, _I believe_, a Judge is _obligated_ to consider\* far more\* comprehensive social reports and also _explain_ his reasoning behind the type of sentence as well as the tariff (probably need to do a search on ‘UK sentencing policy’ to find the exact rules) Are judges amazingly biased amazingly biased against people from poorer backgrounds in following that Government (Home Office) policy…? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fierra \* > Likewise, if they commit that crime 1 day before their 18th birthday, I don’t see why the punishment should be any different from if they had committed it the next day. If they had raped or killed a relative of mine, I cannot see my feelings towards their punishment being any different based on one day of age “Oh, they’re only 17, they’re just a kid, yeah, they wouldn’t have done it next year, let’s let them go”. If you want to debate arbitrary age limits and/or how those arbitrary limits lead to injustice for the victims, I invite you to start a GD thread. Or stand for Parliament. However, the general point is that societies protect people under a given age, whether that be in, say, their ability to be a party to a contract, driving age, drinking age or even ability to give consent to sex because they are deemed to be intrinsically immature. With the exception of half a dozen countries practicing Islamic Law and the US, that convention extends to protecting them from the full, adult, repercussions of committing murder…I happen to agree with it but I hazard so do most otherwise the law would change through the mechanism of populist politics. If you hold a different view, fine. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/52 "2002-09-25T12:41:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > **If you want to debate arbitrary age limits and/or how those arbitrary limits lead to injustice for the victims, I invite you to start a GD thread. Or stand for Parliament.** Umm…no, it’s actually pretty germane to this thread, so we won’t be going elsewhere right now. > [@](#): > > With the exception of half a dozen countries practicing Islamic Law and the US, that convention extends to protecting them from the full, adult, repercussions of committing murder.\*\* **Max Torque** and **minty green** and others can correct me, but I believe that every single person under 18 who has been executed or is on Death Row in the US _was found to be able to stand trial as an adult under a due process of law_. And when the court finds you are an adult, you are an adult, AFAIK. So maybe you’re right after all. It’s not about arbitrary age limits, it’s about societies which have an ultimate penalty for some crimes of death, _for adults_. Or maybe you could argue that it’s really pretty silly and ignorant to ignore completely the obviously adult behaviors, adult attitudes, and adult crimes of those who are 17 years and 364 days, and you could also argue that a legal system which takes into account the fact that _arbitrary age limits are not always correct_, is a more enlightened legal society than that of, oh, I don’t know, other countries, which almost seem to want to stick their fingers in their respective ears and pretend like there are no 17-year old monsters who deserve the full penalty of law if they act as an adult, and are found to be adults by the courts? > [@](#): > > …I happen to agree with it but I hazard so do most otherwise the law would change through the mechanism of populist politics. Is this really an accurate statement to make, from a logical cause-and-effect standpoint? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/53 "2002-09-25T12:50:56Z")
You could also argue that that was a long-assed paragraph I wrote, with far too many commas. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/54 "2002-09-25T13:42:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > **Max Torque** and **minty green** and others can correct me, but I believe that every single person under 18 who has been executed or is on Death Row in the US _was found to be able to stand trial as an adult under a due process of law_. You’re correct. So far as I know, no state provides for capital punishment for a juvenile crime. Of course, determining who’s a juvenile and who isn’t is more a matter of mustering suifficient outrage over the crime, not whether the defendant has the intellectual capacity of an adult, but that’s a somewhat different complaint. I see nothing wrong in principle with determining that there’s no compelling distinction between a particular 17-year-old and an ordinary adult. > [@](#): > > So maybe you’re right after all. It’s not about arbitrary age limits, it’s about societies which have an ultimate penalty for some crimes of death, _for adults_. Precisely my complaint above. The “Oooh, you guys are so mean you even kill children!” argument is nothing but a diversion on the part of **L\_C**. Good lord, man, if you oppose the death penalty, at least have the balls to attack it on it head-on instead of sniping at the meaningless marginalia. ---
**Author:** ![fierra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58956e/32.png) [@fierra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fierra)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395/55 "2002-09-25T15:18:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\* > If you want to debate arbitrary age limits and/or how those arbitrary limits lead to injustice for the victims, I invite you to start a GD thread. Or stand for Parliament. > > However, the general point is that societies protect people under a given age, whether that be in, say, their ability to be a party to a contract, driving age, drinking age or even ability to give consent to sex because they are deemed to be intrinsically immature. With the exception of half a dozen countries practicing Islamic Law and the US, that convention extends to protecting them from the full, adult, repercussions of committing murder…I happen to agree with it but I hazard so do most otherwise the law would change through the mechanism of populist politics. > > If you hold a different view, fine. \*\* I do hold a different view, but I see no point in a GD thread to discuss it - you have your opinion, I have mine. Talking about it won’t change either. My opinion is that the death penalty, if wrong, is wrong for everyone, regardless of their age, and if right, then it is right for everyone who the courts decide can be tried as an adult. Age limits are arbitrary, and contradictory, even within the same country (like the ludicrous case that in this country, you’re old enough to have a job, live on your own, have sex, get married, have a family, and yet not old enough to recognise that if you have committed a crime, it is wrong & you should pay for it, because you’re under 18). If you commit an adult crime, you should pay for it like an adult. Rape is not a childish crime, and nor, in my opinion, is murder. I’m not going to let this get side tracked into the debate of punishment vs reform, but those cases cited or teens were executed for their crimes were multiple-repeat offenders. Perhaps if something had been done earlier, instead of saying “they’re just a child, they’ll grow out of it, we can’t punish them as they won’t understand why”, they may not have gone that far, and may not have harmed so many lives and had to be killed for it. I don’t know, I’m not a criminal psychologist, nor studied in this particular field. Likewise, I think the death penalty (or maximum sentence) is wrong for everyone or right for everyone (guilty of the relevant crimes), regardless of their backgrounds - people should not get favourable treatment under the law becuase they’re rich (as tended to happen in Victorian times, and earlier), but nor should they get favourable treatment because they’re poor. The law should be fair, and to me that means that everyone should be treated the same way, regardless of skin colour, sex, sexual orientation or social background, otherwise it is not a just and equitable law. But, like I say, LC, it is just my opinion, my personal belief. It’s one I strongly hold, but I see no point in debating it, as it will just be like the witnessing threads - those that believe in the death penalty will chime in with the usual arguments, those that don’t with their exact same routine arguments, and no one’s minds will be changed, least of all mine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-am-against-the-death-penalty/129395.md?page=2)