Am I crazy or was John simply using a creative title to tell a frustrating story of bureaucratic headaches?
I read this as John Corrado telling us about his crazy weekend, and nothing more.
J
RE: “only when we absolutely know” via witnesses, confessions.
both have been unreliable. There’s many cases of eye witness testimony being proven wrong (via DNA, which isn’t always available in all cases), and confessions galore. For example, the only case where GWB helped some one off death row, involved the case (hell, what was his name Lucas??) a guy who’d murderd several people, was caught in Texas, tried, convicted, then started confessing to all sorts of crimes all over the country. Texas gave him the DP in a case where the victim was only identified as “Orange SOcks” and pretty much the only evidence was his confession. However, it was later demonstrated that at the time of the death, he was in Florida, (documented through work records), and couldn’t have done it;
Being interested in this sort of thing, I decided to see what sort of juvenile offenders had been executed in the US since the DP was brought back in 1976. I’m only looking at those executed in Texas, since I know off the top of my head where to find their info sheets.
Charles Rumbaugh - killed a 58-year-old man during a jewelry store robbery. His sheet is full of escape attempts, attacks on police officers, threats against officers of the court, and threats against his own attorney.
Jay Pinkerton - murdered and raped two women, both of whom suffered more than 30 stab wounds. But hey, that one was an attempted rape, so maybe we should go easy on him, eh?
Johnny Garrett - raped, strangled and beat a 76-year-old nun to death. Confessed.
Curtis Harris - Beat a 27-year old man to death with a tire iron. The man apparently pulled over to give assistance to Harris and his party, who were having car trouble, and he was robbed and killed after he rendered such assistance.
Ruben Cantu’s page is missing from the server.
Joseph Cannon - His attorney trusted him and gave him a place to live to help him go straight while he was on probation. In return, Cannon shot his attorney’s sister 7 times and tried to rape her after she was dead.
Robert Carter - Killed six people, including five children, ages 16, 9, 6, 5, and 4. The four-year-old was stabbed to death while cowering under a pillow. Carter then set fire to the house to cover the crime. Reason for all this: the 16-year-old girl had recently filed a paternity suit against him.
Glenn McGinnis - Shot a 30-year-old woman working as a clerk in a laundry. He shot her four times, three times in the back, took her wallet, and fled. His prints were on the wallet and the money in his pocket. He had been placed on probation for auto theft 5 days before the murder.
Gary Graham - convicted for fatally shooting a man outside a grocery store and robbing him of less than $100. He had been charged in 10 other robberies, and was a suspect in two more shootings, ten car thefts, and eight robberies in Houston.
Gerald Mitchell - Pretending to sell marijuana to two men, he pulled a sawed-off shotgun on them, drove them to a vacant house, robbed them, forced them to sit on the floor, and shot them. One survived, leading to his conviction. On the same day, he killed another man for refusing to give him a necklace he demanded.
Napoleon Beazley - followed a 63-year-old man home and shot him in the head as he sat in his car in his driveway.
T.J. Jones - pulled a 75-year-old man from his vehicle as he left his driveway. When he resisted, Jones shot him in the head and left him in the road. Confessed.
Toronto Patterson - Shot and killed a woman in her home, along with her 6-year-old son and 3-year-old daughter. He stole three wheel rims from her car before fleeing. Confessed.
Anyway. Somehow I don’t think clerical errors put these folks on Death Row, and I don’t think their age is any defense for what they did.
(Incidentally, of those juvenile offenders executed, you’ll note that all but one were 17 years old at the time of the offense, the one exception being 16. Methinks Anthracite’s point about drawing a line at 18 being unreasonable is valid.)
Being interested in this sort of thing, I decided to see what sort of juvenile offenders had been executed in the US since the DP was brought back in 1976. I’m only looking at those executed in Texas, since I know off the top of my head where to find their info sheets.
Charles Rumbaugh - killed a 58-year-old man during a jewelry store robbery. His sheet is full of escape attempts, attacks on police officers, threats against officers of the court, and threats against his own attorney.
Jay Pinkerton - murdered and raped two women, both of whom suffered more than 30 stab wounds. But hey, that one was an attempted rape, so maybe we should go easy on him, eh?
Johnny Garrett - raped, strangled and beat a 76-year-old nun to death. Confessed.
Curtis Harris - Beat a 27-year old man to death with a tire iron. The man apparently pulled over to give assistance to Harris and his party, who were having car trouble, and he was robbed and killed after he rendered such assistance.
Ruben Cantu’s page is missing from the server.
Joseph Cannon - His attorney trusted him and gave him a place to live to help him go straight while he was on probation. In return, Cannon shot his attorney’s sister 7 times and tried to rape her after she was dead.
Robert Carter - Killed six people, including five children, ages 16, 9, 6, 5, and 4. The four-year-old was stabbed to death while cowering under a pillow. Carter then set fire to the house to cover the crime. Reason for all this: the 16-year-old girl had recently filed a paternity suit against him.
Glenn McGinnis - Shot a 30-year-old woman working as a clerk in a laundry. He shot her four times, three times in the back, took her wallet, and fled. His prints were on the wallet and the money in his pocket. He had been placed on probation for auto theft 5 days before the murder.
Gary Graham - convicted for fatally shooting a man outside a grocery store and robbing him of less than $100. He had been charged in 10 other robberies, and was a suspect in two more shootings, ten car thefts, and eight robberies in Houston.
Gerald Mitchell - Pretending to sell marijuana to two men, he pulled a sawed-off shotgun on them, drove them to a vacant house, robbed them, forced them to sit on the floor, and shot them. One survived, leading to his conviction. On the same day, he killed another man for refusing to give him a necklace he demanded.
Napoleon Beazley - followed a 63-year-old man home and shot him in the head as he sat in his car in his driveway.
T.J. Jones - pulled a 75-year-old man from his vehicle as he left his driveway. When he resisted, Jones shot him in the head and left him in the road. Confessed.
Toronto Patterson - Shot and killed a woman in her home, along with her 6-year-old son and 3-year-old daughter. He stole three wheel rims from her car before fleeing. Confessed.
Anyway. Somehow I don’t think clerical errors put these folks on Death Row, and I don’t think their age is any defense for what they did.
(Incidentally, of those juvenile offenders executed, you’ll note that all but one were 17 years old at the time of the offense, the one exception being 16. Methinks Anthracite’s point about drawing a line at 18 being unreasonable is valid.)
If they execute juvenile offenders following due process of law and judicial review, and the offenders are guilty of the crime under the law, and are found so, and that is the punishment, then so be it. But I do feel that the statement you make above is misleading, as it assumes that these other countries have the same standards of rigorous defence that the US does. And the same rights to fair trial and appeal that the US does.
Surely you are not saying that the US is “in company” with them on that basis? You cannot only focus on the punishment, and not how the punishment is arrived at and the entire judicial process involved, and make the claim that the US is “in company” with them. I guess if you want to be pedantic about it, then yes, it is technically true. But that doesn’t tell the whole story; not even a tenth of it.
If the US has in fact signed a legal document stating that they will not do so, and this applies to the States of the US as well, and it was duly ratified by the US Senate under the Constitution, and we are violating this document, then what can I say in defence? I am ashamed if that is so.
But it does not change my opinion on whether a 17-year old mass murderer deserves the full penalty of law, should they be found by the court, and upheld on appeal, that they are to be treated as an adult, in all ways and manners.
I guess the point that LC is attempting to make is that:
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Many countries don’t allow for the DP at all.
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Of those countries that do allow for it, only those cited allow for it for juveniles.
So, while those ‘bad countries’ which allow for the DP for juvies and don’t have rigorous standards of justice (must not mention recent actions of Att. General… 
) , are, yes, bad, the comparison can also be made that of the countries which do allow for a death penalty and have rigorous standards of justice **etc. only the US also allows for the DP for juveniles.
(** keeping in mind that it was a rigorous system of justice that also convicted all those folks who’ve been subsequently released from prison as being innocent - and that it took huge efforts to do so, often w/the prosecution rigorously trying to keep them in prison/death row; etc etc etc)
Tell me about it. 
Anthracite, they ratified the Covenant reserving the right to execute persons convicted of crimes before the age of 18. So, basically, we never said we wouldn’t. You can find our list of reservations here, including this one:
Preusing the rest of the page, you’ll note that other nations are of the opinion that this means that we never really entered into the agreement at all. I bet if we sent 'em samplings of the sort of folks I listed above, they’d shortly be whistling a different tune.
Hi, Ice Wolf -
My web search attributed the quote both to Innocent III (not the second - my bad) and to the other.
If we are actually going to have another DP discussion., the OP is not very good evidence against. Nobody that I know of who supports the DP wants to revoke the right of appeal, and therefore all the arguments that we might have executed an innocent person if we hadn’t found out just in time that he was innocent are beside the point.
Saying we should put people into prison for life even though they might be innocent shows that we object to the DP more than to simple injustice. Improve the appeals process if you can, certainly - and then execute the guilty.
“Beyond a reasonable doubt” does not have to equal a signed statement from God attesting to the convict’s guilt. You can never square the circle of truth such that no one will ever be executed wrongfully - just as you can never reduce the number of innocents murdered by the truly guilty who got off to zero.
And old enough to kill is old enough to die. So he’s sixteen and a half instead of eighteeen - big deal. His victims are just as dead.
Regards,
Shodan
I think John Corrado was using the anecdote in the OP to illustrate that errors can happen – making the point that even in cases substantially more grave than a misdemeanor driving-without-a-license, a false accusation and erroneous reading of evidence can lead to an improper conviction.
Now, what happens when such a case is uncovered and reversed? The convicted person is set free; his fines are remitted to him; generally compensation is available (perhaps by a suit for false imprisonment, perhaps automatically) for the time during which he was confined. To the extent possible, we as a society make recompense for the wrong done him.
Which leads me to the conclusion that only a court capable of raising someone from the dead should award the death penalty, except perhaps on a guilty plea. I’ve been years trying to make up my mind what is “just” here – and I’ve now given up, and am looking at what is merciful. Sure, it may mean that some people whom the majority think deserve death get life imprisonment without parole instead – and it ensures that nobody is executed for a crime they did not commit.
Yes, Poly. But it takes a far more serious error (or more likely, a string of serious errors) to result in an incorrect conviction for capital murder and a sentence of death. One cannot validly extrapolate from a bureaucratically-misdirected traffic fine to the lethal injection of an innocent person–the comparison is facile.
John Corrado, what an excellent, well written post. My feeling exactly. It really feels like you are in a bad dream when that kind of stuff happens to you. what’s worse, you can’t yell or scream at the cop who at this point, is not listening to anything you have to say anyway – sure, you can prove you are not guilty later, but you spend the time between the initial arrest and your court date nervous that things will continue not to go your way.
Now imagine you are on trial for your life – if you shit your pants for an unpaid parking ticket offense, can you imagine how you would act if you were facing the death penalty? even if you are innocent, how can you even think straight?
but minty I know that you know that such snafus do in fact happen, that people have been through the entire legal process and sentenced to death and close to getting executed who were innocent. So, Johns point that mistakes can indeed happen, even long strings of them, is true. (and, as you have seen, the prosecution is fiercely protective of guilty verdicts in DP cases even when the person is still alive, can you imagine how much cooperation you’d get post execution?)
You’re looking at that the wrong way, wring. The fact that people are occasionally sentenced to death, but are later found not guilty and released, is proof that the checks and balances built into the system work!
or, a coerced confession. somebody confesses to a crime they didn’t do, and the Kakfa kicks in.
jb
wring, I am in no way objecting to the argument that mistakes happen. What I am objecting to is the comparison of this mistake with the arrest, indictment, conviction, affirmance on appeal, unsuccessful habeas corpus, and execution of an innocent person.
nope.
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In the first place, there’s been quite the push on to ‘speed up’ the executions, doing away with those pesky appeals. Of course, it’s the appeals process that often discovers the errors, so doing away with the appeals is a ‘bad idea’.
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Secondly, re-read if you please, my exchange w/minty, where he (who is actively involved in the process) agrees with my characterization that the prosecution actively and strenuously resists any attempts to reexamine evidence (as opposed to simply defending the verdict).
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Once the person is executed, the case is closed, the evidence is no longer readily available (and I use that term squeemishly, since from what I’ve read, the evidence isn’t readily available to the defense for testing, post conviction). and, of course, the prosecution has an even stronger motive to keep it so, since if it is discovered after execution that the person was innocent, they helped execute an innocent person. and people stop looking for evidence.
Which, yet again, is simply not means comparable to the trivial annoyance that John Corrado proclaims as his reason to oppose the death penalty.
BTW, in most states, an uncorroborated confession is insufficient basis for a criminal conviction. So even with a confession, additional mistakes would have to occur before the suspect could be convicted, sentenced, and executed.
minty??? unsupported confessions insufficient?
Henry LEe Lucas (finally remember the name), confessed to murdering ‘orange socks’, didn’t do it. THere wasn’t any evidence linking him to the death (IIRC, and hell, how could there be, he was in Florida at the time). Texas case.
I understand your concern re: the relatively trivial experience of the OP, but I suggest that he’s not seeing it as a direct comparison, but more as a ‘walkinto a brick wall’, oh yea, humans make mistakes, type of ephiphany.
Well, minty, assuming a competent and impartial judge, a D.A. who is committed to the execution of justice, a competent and committed defense attorney, and a jury who take seriously their oaths and instructions, it’s unlikely that an innocent person will be sentenced to death.
Now, how likely is it that somewhere in this great land one of those elements will be missing in a capital trial? And what of the case of somebody guilty of, say, second degree manslaughter who is facing a charge of first degree murder instead?
John illustrated from his own experience a rather minor charge – but one with the potential for severe consequences to his life if not corrected. He drew, or rather implied, a parallel from this to the ultimate in possible consequences.
And have you happened to notice what the Rehnquist court has had to say about habeas corpus and the appeals process over the last fifteen or so years? (Sarcasm – I know you have.) The potential for an error at trial not to be reversed in the appellate process is, IMHO, quite large these days.
(Example: The State of North Carolina recently was prepared to execute a mildly retarded black man who had taken up with the estranged wife of a former police officer. She manipulated him into a plot to kill the former officer, so as to be free of him. She got life for killing him; the retarded man, as her accomplice under N.C. murder law, was facing death. To call his trial lawyer incompetent would be complimentary; he would have gotten better defense if he had appointed the chair he was sitting on as his counsel. He was finally spared the death penalty when the outgoing governor reversed his own longstanding policy on clemency in what he deemed the interests of justice, as the result of popular outcry about the disparity in sentences.)