Why I Don't Trust Conservatives/Republicans

Great Debates
21

So liberals are more trustworthy because they claim altruism? That is simply a bizarre and unrealistic leap of logic. However, even if I beieved that all of liberal thought was motivated by an honest desire to help people and all that crap you claim, it wouldn’t shake my distaste for liberalism. Let me illustrate the irrelevance of motivation with a simple example.

In China, Mao starved somewhere on the order of 100 million people in the name of altruism. Meanwhile, in Hong Kong, freedom and prosperity flourished because the British couldn’t be bothered to care much about a small colonial outpost they originally set up to maintain the opium trade with China. I’d vote for the guy that would give me freedom for the most self-serving reasons over the guy that would starve me for the most noble.

22

DavidB:

Oh come on now!

I suppose all Liberals are welfare drug users, and all atheists want to outlaw religion.

That’s the first time you’ve ever made my respoctometer drop.

23

You are completely missing the boat here, Scylla.

I’m not using extremists – I’m using those who are considered “conservatives.”

Sure, there are moderates who are pro-choice (for example), but that’s not who I’m talking about. Indeed, that’s one way people determine who is a “moderate”!

So what, exactly, are you arguing against? Are you saying that conservatives are pro-choice, pro-homosexual rights, pro-marijuana legalization, anti-school-prayer, etc.?

24

I think that’s your problem. You see the Republicans standing up for people like you, and you conclude that they’re selfish. You see Democrats standing up for people not like you, and you conclude that they are unselfish. Just who do the Democrats stand up for? Blacks, women, blue collar worker, and non Protestants. And who are the Democrats, on the whole? Blacks, women, blue collar workers, and non Protestansts. How can you look at a group of blacks, women, blue collar workers, and non Protestansts fighting for the interests of blacks, women, blue collar workers, and non Protestansts, and say that they are being unselfish?!? They are being just as selfish as Republicans!

Just what are these Republican positions that are so selfish? Here are the positions that I can think of:

Low taxes
Okay, so this one helps Republicans more than it helps Democrats, so I suppose one could interpret it as selfish (if wanting to keep one’s own money for one’s self instead of having other people taking it away from you is “selfish”).

Anti-abortion
Let’s see, are there any Republicans that are unborn fetuses? Not that I’ve heard of. Sounds unselfish to me.

Pro Protestant
From the Christian viewpoint, bringing other people to Christianity is an act of charity. Now, you may not like people trying to change your religion, and I don’t either, but since you are so hung up on motives, I’d say that this goes down in the unselfish category.

Anti homosexual
Again, they are taking the position that they believe is best for others, so this goes in the unselfish category.
Pro gun rights
I don’t see how this primarily benefits Republicans, so I consider this to be an unselfish position.
So that’s five positions, of which only one is selfish, and that one is dubious. So, what are all these selfish positions of Republicans? Hmmm?

25

Abortion is simply not a straightforward issue of freedom. It is simply a matter of at what point one believes that life begins. Depending on the answer to that, one’s position naturally follows. Where I live, I’ve seen most Republicans support abortion rights, and of the miniscule pro-life crowd, I can think of a handful of Irish Catholic Democrats.

Recently, what I would consider true conservatism (in the Goldwater tradition) has been perverted by its alliance with the religious right. Many of the opinions associated with the Republicans are a result of politicians such as Reagan pandering to this group, rather than identifying characteristics of conservative thought. This is why groups such as the Log Cabin Republicans exist. I’ve seen comments from Cheney, whose daughter is a lesbian, that seem to indicate that he would be in favor of gay marriages.

http://www.dallasnews.com/national/188950_cheney_11pol.A.html

As for drugs, while legalization is a tenet of some of the radical left, it is creeping into the mainstream from the right more than the left. Wasn’t it the National Review that came out in favor of it a few years ago. And the fairly conservative state of Alaska put marijuana legalization on the ballot this election. California led the way for medical marijuana legalization under Republican governor Pete Wilson. Meanwhile, some Democrats are trying to expand into tobacco laws as well.

I don’t see drug policy as being at all polarized along the Democrat-Republican axis.

26

I have always considered myself more along the lines of a libertarian, but most people label me as a conservative.

I am pro-life, pro-individual rights(I don’t care if you are gay or straight, black or white, male or female), pro-legalization of all drugs, a fan of seperation of church and state, etc…
My pro-life position stems from my belief on when life begins. I do not protest abortion centers.

I consider myself more aligned with the conservatives because they tend to push the federal gov’t less than liberals.

27

Freedom2 said:

Then those people are wrong. Don’t contribute to their errors by making further incorrect statements yourself! If you’re a libertarian, stand up and say it proudly. Because, as I have noted, those who are considered “conservatives” today are definitely not pro-freedom any more than those who are considered “liberals” today are. Both fight for their own freedoms, but fight against others.

28

Absolutely. What could be more about self than PERSONAL freedom and responsibility?

And there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. In fact, I am a passionate believer in personal freedom, and in personal responsibility. To a degree you might find ridiculous, but I won’t go into that.

However, I think that characterizing conservative ideology as being about “Personal freedom and responsibility” is at best misinformed, at worst a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

Certainly conservatives would like everyone to have complete freedom to maximize their abilities and talents to make as much money as possible, without any interference from anyone, especially government. Certainly conservatives want criminals, (a highly debatable idea in itself) to “take responsibility” and serve time or die.

And on the face of it, I disagree with neither idea.

But it’s much more than that.

A liberal also believes in PERSONAL freedom and personal responsibilty. Unlike many conservatives, they do not confine this belief to personal freedom to pursue wealth. Liberals also believe in each persons personal freedom to have sex with whom they like, believe or not believe in any form of god, bear or not bear children, and many, if not most, also believe in each person’s right to use drugs OTHER than alcohol and tobacco.
But they do not, as conservatives seem to, think that “personal” applies to non-human entities, such as corporations and other businesses. And while they believe in personal responsibility, they also believe in social responsibility. We are not each islands unto ourselves, and we cannot behave as though we are.

Again, I do not subscribe to all liberal positions, I do not disagree with all conservative ones. I merely observe the underlying belief system and desire driving each, and I TRUST the liberal more.

hey, take it down to this:

I listen to Rush, and I hear incredible lack of logic, deliberate ignorance of fact, and complete self-involvement.

I listen to Bill Press, I hear a bleeding heart, but not convenient thinking in the service of personal desires.

An easy example:

Dubya and his ilk’s continued stubborn unwillingness to admit global warming is a reality. So long as they can find a handful of scientists to say “maybe not”, well, then the jury is still out. Why? Because to admit it is real would mean making changes that would interfere with big business (especially big oil!). So let’s just be selfish assholes and pretend we have science on our side.

On the other hand…what is the selfish motive of liberals in accepting it as real? How does it benefit them PERSONALLY to embrace it as a fact? Answer: it doesn’t! If it’s real (and it is), then it is trouble and a pain in EVERYBODY’s ass. But liberals concern themselves with everybody, including the everybody of the FUTURE. Conservatives? Hey, as long as we’re fat and happy today, fuck 'em!

29

Man, alotta posts pop in while I’m replying…

I’ll be back, but I wanted to throw this in here:

If conservatives are supposedly about “freedom”, then why is it conservatives who despise the ACLU? All the ACLU is about is preserving our freedoms, particularly our right to free speech. And they are consistent: I’m sure they were nauseated when they defended the Nazis that wanted to march in Skokie, but they had to because it was the right thing to do.

Yet conservatives spit on the name. Why?

30

Mainstream liberals do not advocate drug legalization, and certainly not in the case of hard drugs. And the DOMA passed with bipartisan support, and was signed by the Democratic President.

You mean that they do not extend the freedoms that people enjoy individually to include associations among people for the purposes of making money. As for social responsibility, it cannot be mandated without the expense of some personal freedom. I don’t see how it is less selfish for person A to force person B to help persons C, D, and E than it is for person A to let person B do whatever he damn well pleases with regard to helping others.

OK, let’s first remove speculation about what Bush’s real motivation is, because otherwise you are pretty much using the presumption of dishonesty on his part to prove that it exists. I see it as protecting businesses from having the government take action against them based on inconclusive data. Perhaps I could even say that a government official maintaining tight reigns on the power of the government is unselfish.

Without assuming what the motivations liberals have are, I’ll toss out some possibilities. First, they could gain power over big business to use for other purposes. Also, they could simply like using it to claim a moral victory over conservatives, as you have just done. Perhaps they just want to weaken their enemies.

In short, you are assuming that the liberals are honest and the conservatives aren’t, then using the liberal “truth” and conservative “lies” to prove your point. You are assuming that people are more likely to lie for monetary gain than simply to appear righteous.

Aside from the obvious exception of Second Ammendment rights, I think the most common point on which conservatives reject the ACLU is in the ACLU’s very broad definition of the rights of people accused of crimes. Also, the religious right has no love for the separation of church and state. People opposed to free speech fall on both sides of the political spectrum, and are generally idiots in their own right. Most conservatives are not opposed to the principles of civil liberty, but may still object to the ACLU’s specific methods. It’s not as if the ACLU’s is the only viewpoint on civil liberties.

31

It’s funny how most people see the Libertarian party drawing from the Republicans and not the democrats.

Neither party has a reasonable view on drugs IMHO.

The benefit is that they are using this as as excuse to enlarge government power and re-distribute wealth to third world countries.

I am not making a stand on global warming, but that is other side of the arguement.

32

**
I listen to Rush, and I hear incredible lack of logic, deliberate ignorance of fact, and complete self-involvement.

I listen to Bill Press, I hear a bleeding heart, but not convenient thinking in the service of personal desires.
**

I listen to a demogouge, I take it as the accepted voice of one party. I listen to an intelligent man, I take it as the voice of the other party. I build up a strawman, I tear it down. I make sweeping generalizations, I don’t back them up. I want to limit corporate power; I give power to a group, who then sells it to corporations. I speak in simple, declarative sentences; I must be right.

33

I just wish I had said that:)

34

…but I saw this, too:

**
An easy example:

Dubya and his ilk’s continued stubborn unwillingness to admit global warming is a reality. So long as they can find
a handful of scientists to say “maybe not”, well, then the jury is still out. Why? Because to admit it is real would
mean making changes that would interfere with big business (especially big oil!). So let’s just be selfish assholes
and pretend we have science on our side.
**

Instead, on inconclusive evidence (which is what it looks like to me, but then, I get my news from the SDMB), Gore signs the Kyoto treaty. Which limits the abilities of third world contries to industrialise and modernise. But that’s okay, because the helpful and altrustic party will take money from those big bad rich conservatives and send it to the third world, and not because its some sort of sick turn-on for them, but because the liberals want to help. How sweet.

35

Id say that selfishness is personal responsibility. At least half it is.

Liberals focus less on self. Which means less responsibilities for selfish actions:)

IMHO focusing on others before yourself hurts everyone because of communication problems among other things. Now if everyone was exactly the same focusing on everyone would be ok.

36

As for social responsibility, it cannot be mandated without the expense of some personal freedom.

Exactly. And in fact, liberals and conservatives alike believe that we need to mandate some social responsibility, and some personal freedom, and that the two things tend to encroach upon each other and have to be balanced. It’s just that each side has a different take on how much and what kinds of responsibility and freedom are most important.

Personally, I don’t see the point of making a Kulturkampf out of those differences. Stoidela, the reason you’re not seeing me and a lot of other die-hard liberals on this board jumping in on your side is not, I think, that we’ve never felt the same way about conservatives in moments of exasperation; it’s that making it into a battle of ideologies only leads to more overgeneralization and mutual misunderstanding.

After all, you and I think our ideas represent the right balance of freedom and social responsibility. So when we see other people leaning farther to the “freedom” side than we do, they look selfish to us. Similarly, conservatives think they have the right balance, and when they see us leaning farther to the “social responsibility” side, we look interfering and dictatorial to them. These are not profound political insights, these are just tricks of philosophical perspective that have been working this way since the dawn of political thinking. They merely encourage us not to listen to each other. I don’t think that’s a good thing.

37

The calm, reasonable, fair, nice guy is a liberal!!!

arf.

38

Now now, waterj2, for example, was being calm and fair. And so are you, when you’re not too steamed up. :slight_smile:

(Also, not that it matters, but I’m not a guy. Or I’m a female guy. Or whatever. Never mind.)

39

Is that your final answer?:slight_smile:

40

DavidB:

As we have shown on this board many times, and sometimes to my chagrin, people are individuals, not groups.

I consider myself Conservative because I identify with more aspects of Conservative thought, than I do with Liberal. I am not against everything liberals stereotypically beleive in, nor am I in favor of everything Conservatives are identified with.

This is true with the majority of people who identify with any group.

I believe in free-markets, less-taxes, and fewer entitlement programs. Every few years corporations downsize to get rid of obsolescence, refocus, and become more efficient. The government is under no such compunction and it becomes a bureacratic cumbersome and innefective behemoth.

I beleive that it is not the governments job to take care of you. That is both your right and your responsibility. The government people to rely on it. By doing so they become dependent. We provide them with the means to stay alive, but we educate poorly and do afford opportuntity or incentive to succeed. This is detrimental to everybody. I would gladly pay whatever taxes necessary to ensure first class education and incentive, but I insist that it be used to accomplish those ends. I begrudge the waste, not the goal.

I am against abortion because I feel in most cases it is wrong. I do not believe that I can impose that idea upon women, they have the right to choose.\

Though I haven’t done it before, I have recently made substantial donations of $ and goods to the Salvation Army (in an attack of conscience,) not because of any secular attachment but because they do good work and make a difference.

I support equal rights, but like everybody I’ve met I don’t always agree with what equal is.

I am for responsible and sustainable use of the environment.

As a whole I am against special interest groups. I beleive that our achievements towards equality have been substantial, and that these do not always serve to close the gap that remains, but rather keep it open.

I was born and raised a Catholic, and attended secular school up to High School. I then went to Public Shool. I was able to coast in Public School through my Junior year on what I’d learned in Catholic School up to the 8th grade.

I don’t attend Church, am undecided but optimistic concerning God.

People say Conservatives are not compassionate, or lack Social commitment. My family has a strong military background, and there are profound reasons why the people who are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for freedom tend towards the Republican. We put our money where our mouth is. There can be no deeper commitment that to be willing to die to protect another’s freedom.

In short, I am Conservative. Pigeonhole me further and call me a Moderate Conservative (crap, now I’m speaking in declarative sentences, it’s contagious. Watch out! Save yourselves!)

But unless you want to be a Left Wing Pinko Godless Free Loving Peudo Intellectual Cowardly Druggie Long-Haired Welfare Common Sense Lacking Unhygienic Morse Hippie, I’d suggest you watch the unfair and inaccurate generalizations.