Why I Don't Trust Conservatives/Republicans

It boggles the mind how you can have a title “Why I don’t trust conservatives/Republicans” and then deny you’re being personal. Why don’t you try this one on for size and see if it doesn’t sound personal: “Why I don’t trust blacks.” and “All the Blacks voted for Al Gore. I mean, I’m not going to be rude and make sweeping generalizations here, but draw what conclusions you want about THAT.”

You’ve made it crystal clear that non-democrats have lost your respect before you’ve even conversed with them. How sad.

[Slight Hijack]

Dinsdale: 75% of a below minimum wage monthly allotment? Gee, I’m just rollin’ in it, ain’t I? :rolleyes:

Sorry, maybe I’m just to cynical to believe that a politician, or a group of them, is actually going to fix what needs fixin’, instead of keeping it around by mutual consent as a perrenial boogeyman to wave at the masses to scare them into voting for whichever candidate yells the loudest that they’re finally going to do something.

I guess I am a selfish bastard for not wanting to eat cut-rate dry dog food and live in a cold, drafty tenetment with a dozen other old geezers because the system can only pay 75% of my authorized entitlement after snipping money from my paycheck for my entire adult life.

Stoidela: if you’d care to adopt this simple criteria for any of your future posts about what you don’t like and why, just substitute the word nigger for whatever subject you’re discusiing. If it’s still insulting, don’t post it.

Hey, if it was good enough to get Krispy Original banned…

ExTank
“Mostly Harmless :p”

Tank:

I think she’s making an effort to play nice. Why not let it go.

waterj,

I certainly would not consider myself either conservative or liberal. I'm an Objectivist, which by definition makes me a libertarian (although there are many Objectivists that feel that the Libertarian Party doesn't do enough to protect individual freedom, which I personally find a rather impractical and well, to use an Objectivist bromide, irrational view). I find fault in each side's platform.......to me the only guiding principle is to let every person live their life as they see fit, so long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others.

And yes…I do find fault in being called “ultra right-wing”, because libertarianism is anything but.

Incidentally, if anyone ever cares to do a GD on Objectivism, I’m game :slight_smile:

Do a search on the poster name:

Libertarian

He has been scarce lately, but had some awesome threads.

Well, I’m a libertarian, not a conservative, and more than a little bit familiar with Objectivism and its views on selfishness. I’ve been involved in several GD threads on libertarianism, and Objectivism has come up a few times as well. And I know of at least one other Objectivist (ChiefWahoo) on the boards.

Nice to have you here.

My Dad calls himself a Libertarian, but will vote Republican when it has to count. I guess the answer is simply that given a choice, the average libertarian will choose Republican “fiscal Freedom” over liberal “social freedom” for lack of a better term? Do you agree? And if so…why is that the choice?

My father was/is an Objectivist, I remember when i was a kid the binders filled with Objectivist newsletters and Ayn Rand books on the shelves.

You will scoff at this, but I actually agree with Objectivism…in theory. Every man for himself, stand or fall by your own choices and abilities, and do what you like as long as you don’t mess with anyone else. But I cannot support it in practice, because it is too incredibly destructive.

Stoid

Stoid,

Well, generally the reason that I believe that some Libertarians are more prone to vote Republican is the rationale that without economic freedom, social freedom doesn't really matter a hell of a lot. I'm certainly not going to call them a sell-out.......with a rather tepid choice for a leader such as Harry Browne (I mean, let's face it......he's certainly no inspirational leader, that's for sure!!!!), a large percentage of Libertarian votes for GW Bush (and after all, a recent poll showed that 16% of Americans identify themselves as having Libertarian beliefs, as opposed to 13% who identify themselves liberal and 7% conservative......forgive me, but I can't remember where the quote is from :( )should give a nice kick in the ass to nominate a candidate with some guts!!!

As you know, Objectivism is merely a branch of Libertarianism; ie, an Objectivist is a Libertarian, but a Libertarian need not be an Objectivist. There are the anarcho-capitalists, classical liberals (the original sense of the word, but I'm not going to ask for it back ;) ), constitutionalists/patriots, as well as Christian libertarians (who would clearly not be Objectivists). I suppose any theory is good in theory, is it not??? After all, if one can prove that 2+2=5 (a truly scary thing for you Orwell fans out there :) ), one can prove anything. However, the practical application of theory can be far removed from the original intention. I can understand why people fear a Libertarian society......after all, we've unfortunately become so used to government in our lives that we simply could not imagine a world without it......after all, the fear of the unknown is mankind's greatest fear. However, I believe that a government that provides constitutional services (military, police, contractual arbitration, etc) would work, and work well, and especially well if people were able to apply reason in the process.

At least I thank you for the fair hearing of Objectivism…too many intellectuals dismiss it out of hand…rational debate gets much further than mere demagoguery, does it not (perhaps not a popular idea in a GD, but well, is it not true :slight_smile: )?

Water and Freedom, I hope to run into some of the others as well…and I thank you much for your kind welcome :slight_smile:

**

You may want to read up on what Rand said about Libertarians. She wasn’t exactly their biggest fan. She certainly didn’t feel that being an Objectivist made one a Libertarian.

**

If you agree with a lot of what it says how can you say it is destructive? I mean why would any rational person agree with a philosophy they think is destructive?

I think a lot of Objectivist, and its critics, get mixed up. Objectivist philosophy does not rule out things like charity nor does it state that men must rise and fall all alone in the world. Objectivism is an entire philosophy so it is hard to bundle it all up into a few pat phrases or ideas. But so far as people are concerned Objectivist beliefs tend to learn toward individuals should being free to pursue their own interest and live according to their own values.

Marc

PS: I apologize for the hijack. If anyone wants to discuss this further go ahead and open a thread. I am not a philosopher by profession nor am I an expert on Objectivism but I like to discuss it.

My compliments to the SDMB’s Republicans and conservatives who have contributed to this thread thus far. I think you have done a great job of explaining where we’re coming from philosophically (for those non-Republicans who actually care to listen).

I would just like to add this point: A few blocks from my house, a home has this ENORMOUS Gore-Lieberman campaign sign. After driving by it many times prior to the election, I noticed and began to think about the slogan at the bottom:

“For the People; Not the Powerful.”

This is the Gore campaign’s main sign slogan. This is the message they want to get out there to everybody, first and foremost.

This is the party of inclusion?

Question: Aren’t “the powerful” people, too?

The more economic success our society gains and builds, the more it helps everybody. That’s just the fact. I’m not rich by any stretch of the imagination. But I and most other people are a lot more comfortable economically across the spectrum over the past several years.

Democrats may say, “See? That’s all from Clinton/Gore!”

Republicans may say, “Oh, no. It’s all from the Republican-led Congress!”

The real truth, however, is that it’s because of entrepreneurship, and the technology explosion of the 1990s.

Entrepreneurship is a good thing. Rich people are a good thing. They create companies. They create jobs. They pay the lion’s share of taxes (and would under Bush’s tax plan, too).

It is fair to say Republicans are more supportive of allowing this kind of entrepreneurship to thrive than are Democrats. (Lower taxes, less cumbersome regulation, etc.)

One of the main reasons I dislike Gore and his campaign was its divisiveness. He’s all about pitting sides, and his two favorite sides to play are rich versus poor. I thought he was very disingenuous with his harping on “the richest 1 percent.” Do you know how much the richest 1 percent pay in taxes? That’s why Gore was able to say things like, “Governor Bush proposes more in tax breaks to the richest 1,000 families in this country than all of his expenditures on education.”

Well, A) Education is largely handled by states; and B) That’s because those 1,000 families probably pay more in taxes than millions and millions of the rest of us, put together. Their savings are large because their expenditures are large.

And then Gore’s whole “targeted tax breaks” thing. Did anyone else notice that they seemed to be mostly targeted at people who would stereotypically be Democratic supporters?

If we have a big surplus, and enough to give some tax breaks, why not give everybody who pays taxes some of that break? It strikes me as wholly un-American and divisive to do otherwise. Gore’s message, however? “You deserve more of the money you earned back; you, however, do not.”

Democrats can fire back with, “See? All Republicans think about is money and themselves.”

Think about what the technology explosion has meant. It’s meant more people have more money, across the spectrum. A little better life. Better health care, day care. Safer transportation. Maybe it’s meant more people don’t have to work two jobs anymore, so they can spend more time with their kids.

Democrats shouldn’t proclaim that they have the market cornered on compassion and helping the less fortunate. They don’t.

Democrats seem to believe the best way to accomplish the positive quality of life things I’ve mentioned above are through more, bigger and better social programs. They seem to miss the irony that it takes tax dollars to pay for these programs, and those tax dollars come from everybody – including these struggling, less-fortunate Americans (well, some don’t pay taxes, I know).

And why should I trust a social program to take care of me, as opposed to me and the company I work for taking care of me? Particularly when the people running the bureaucracy in question make no qualms about their divisiveness and their belief that some qualify for their benefaction and some don’t.

Redistribution of wealth doesn’t work. Never has.

I have just created a GD thread to discuss Objectivism and Ayn Rand’s literature. Anyone who is interested can go to

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=46921

Besides, I feel that I’ve said all that can be said in the selfishness debate :).

According to The Economist magazine in 1975 the top 1% owned 20% of the nations wealth in 1999 it was up to 40%. It is true the top few % pay most of the taxes however they have most of the wealth. When the very few control more and more of a nation it is in big trouble, that is what such differing view points of Buchanon, Nadar and even Pope JP2 has addressed in the past. For Republicans this is not a concern and top 1% could own 99% of the country, no problem capitalism at work.

First, explain exactly why this would be a bad thing. Not that I don’t agree, but I’d like to see your reasons for simply declaring that it would be bad.

Second, have you polled all Republicans to see what their views on the matter are, or do you just like to generalize? Or perhaps you too don’t trust Republicans, and feel your opinions about what they believe are more accurate than what they say they believe.

I’m certainly no partisan conservative, but threads like this give me much more sympathy for them. I keep seeing liberals who ascribe all sorts of ridiculous opinions and motives to conservatives without realizing that conservatives are by and large honest and decent people (as are liberals) who disagree with them on several political issues.

I try to hold myself above such generalizations, and notice that liberals on the boards that I respect (Kimstu, Gadarene, and Xenophon41, for a couple examples off the top of my head) seem to do the same. Hell, I hate communism more than anything in the world (more or less), but like and respect Oldscratch, and even go out of my way to read his threads.

Milossarian: The more economic success our society gains and builds, the more it helps everybody. That’s just the fact. I’m not rich by any stretch of the imagination. But I and most other people are a lot more comfortable economically across the spectrum over the past several years.

Whoa there, Milo! I sympathize with your general concern about divisive rhetoric used for empty political posturing, but this particular assertion is very misleading. Maybe things are just getting better for you and most of the people you know, but this is not the case nationwide. True, almost all of us are better off now than we were in the recession of the early '90s, but for the past couple decades real wages have actually been declining for most people. As a 1995 Twentieth Century Fund report notes,

Yes, technological innovation and economic development are good things. But don’t kid yourself that they automatically mean that everybody, or even the majority of the workforce, is going to achieve an improved financial position because of them; that is definitely not the case with our current boom. If you don’t like wealth redistribution schemes, then you’ll have to think of another suggestion for increasing prosperity for people besides those who are already well-to-do. Your current idea that all we have to do is encourage economic development and let the “rising tide lift all boats” has been shown in light of the data to be woefully inadequate.

Just to throw a liberal viewpoint in here, as this seems to have become a conservative-dominated thread all of a sudden:

You aren’t going to get the kind of general prosperity you had back in the 60’s unless and until you get stronger unions. Power, as Frederick Douglass observed, cedes nothing without a demand. All a Democratic president like Clinton can do is appoint fair people to the NLRB and the like. The unions have to pick up the ball from there.
As to those conservatives who think liberal policies, including, yes, unions, are bad for business, think about this:

Corporate share of U.S. income in 1990 under Bush: 8.5%
Corporate share of U.S. income in 1994 under Clinton: 9.9%

I would show that the above pattern has been consistent for Democratic and Republican administrations, but it would involve having to find and dig out my older American Almanacs. The above is from the last one I bought, for 1995 - 1996.
Care to explain that?

OK, I’m thinking about it. I’m wondering what it means. I certainly cannot fathom how it could possibly prove the usefulness of liberal policies. Are you claiming that it was at all due to the preponderance of liberal policies in Clinton’s first two years of being in office that this ocurred? Is this a good thing, a bad thing, or just a meaningless statistic?

That is merely a statistic. There are millions of other statistics available on the comparative state of the economy in those years. By itself, and without any logic even attempting to show that liberal policies were at all relevant in it, I’m really not going to feel the need to alter my belief system because of it. Hell, is the change even statistically significant?

Incidentally, unions are not a liberal policy. They are often composed of large numbers of conservatives as well, even if the organizations spend their dues money lobbying for liberal politicians.

Baloney. Ever heard of NAFTA? And need I remind you who signed THAT into law?

Kudos, Kimstu. I tried to debunk that notion a while back, but not nearly so eloquently.

About the best way to make that system work is to buy into the system, through profit sharing or stock options for public businesses, or your own investment portfolio.

Because there is nothing other than market forces and minimum wage laws to compel business owners/management to share the wealth with their employees.

But if an employee is only making minimum wage, it’s not like they have a whole lot left over for reinvestment, and the hope for financial growth.

And even if a min. wage employee saved up for some kind of investment, they may not feel comfortable enough with the market (either through misunderstanding, ignorance or outright mistrust) to return a portion of their income, as an investment. They may feel that the “cash in hand” is worth more than possibly losing it to a downturn in the market, a recession, or an outright crash.

In other words: even if the min. wage employee saved up enough to invest over a period of time, they have placed a higher value on the money they have saved than the potential it represents, and thus feel that they can’t afford to risk it on an investment.

In economically depressed areas (inner-urban centers and rural areas with limited industrial/manufacturing bases), it’s an employer’s dream come true: limited employment opportunities and a surplus of available labor. Thus it’s a “buyer’s market” for employers/management to set wages at the lowest rate sustainable.

In the economically booming areas, though, it’s a “seller’s market” for employees, as expanding businesses, desparate for qualified/compotent workers (whatever labor category they may be) makes employers/management offer more attractive wage/benefits packages.

That this also contributes to rampant urban sprawl, the destruction of natural habitat through encroachment, and places an undue strain on the local infrastructure that just got blindsided with 50,000 new job and the employees that go with them, is just a few of the detrimental side-effects to the rural-suburban-urban cycle of workforce displacement. But that’s another topic.

The phrase that “the rich get richer and the poor get poorer” may be oversimplistic, but I feel, through direct personal experience going through a rough spot in the early '90s, and the basic economic/market research that I have done as an investor now that times are better [for me], to be fundamentally true.

It’s hard enough to make rent/utilities/groceries as a single person on minimum wage (I shudder to think about having to try and raise a family on min. wage) that I doubt anyone making min. wage is seriously considering investing in even conservative financial plans (CDs and such), much less becoming a day trader.

Because when I was down-and-out, I had only three real plans for getting rich:

1. Get a better paying job. While I eventually did, I had my doubts for a long time. Some others may not have the job skills, education or training to have much hope for this option. Sadly, some have the desire, but due to ignorance and inequities of opportunity, don’t know how or where to begin

2. Hit the Lotto. Still one of my schemes, but I’m not hanging any hopes upon it. But Lottos still sell big-time everywhere I see them.

3. Crime. Glad I didn’t go there; I don’t feel that I’m really tempermentally suited for a life of crime. Others obviously are, which is more the pity, as crime’s detrimental impact on the economy, at every level, only helps to perpetuate the cycle.

ExTank
“Mostly Harmless :p”

Pantom: (citing Frederick Douglas)

While I agree with water2j that your stats are relatively meaningless without some form of context, I do agree with your underlying premise, illustrated by the quote above.

Re: my last post. That “demand” can also be supplied by labor shortages created by an expanding economy (or a “market for labor”, if you will), or competitive wage practices in the private sector, as well as a union picket line. I’m not excluding any option: whatever gives the employees and employers the best buy for their buck.

ExTank
“Mostly Harmless :p”

I posted it without any supporting logic to see what the reaction would be. The usual SDMB stuff: prove it!

You guys are so unreasonable.

Anyway, my point is that it seems counterintuitive that an allegedly anti-business administration would increase the share of national income going to corporate profits, but as the NAFTA thing shows, a liberal administration (and as the health-care thing Clinton tried to put through in '93 shows, he’s very definitely a liberal, regardless of what anyone may say) is not necessarily anti-business. (BTW, PunditLisa, your point was? I didn’t see one.)
Clinton is certainly the first president of the twentieth - and twenty-first - century, to complete a full eight years without presiding over a single national recession. Possibly he’s the only one to accomplish this feat in the history of the republic. All the while he pursued avowedly liberal policies, such as increasing the rate on the highest bracket from 31 to 39%, pushing through multiple increases in the minimum wage, and generally doing all kinds of things that conservative commentators would have said would ruin the economy.
Demonstrably, they did no such thing.
Conservatives, though, will never be convinced, despite the overwhelming evidence that liberal economic policies are good for everyone, including business owners.
Allright, who’s gonna be first to say that it was Reagan and the Republican Congress that gave us eight straight years of growth?