# Why I hate "defensive indifference" **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 7, 2017, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999 "2017-08-07T14:01:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/21 "2017-08-07T20:12:21Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Laying down a bunt against a pitcher trying to not throw a buntable pitch is far harder than four easy tosses wide of the plate. > ETA: With the runner going, the batter _must_ make contact on that pitch. I’ve seen some of those so-called easy tosses thrown passed the catcher and base runners have advanced as a result. That’s why those throws should be made, rather than waived. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/22 "2017-08-07T20:21:46Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > **I’ve seen some of those so-called easy tosses thrown passed the catcher and base runners have advanced as a result.** That’s why those throws should be made, rather than waived. Which I mentioned in post 5. I also enjoy the “Little League homerun”. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/23 "2017-08-07T23:11:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Doesn’t it “warp the numbers” to give a batter credit for something he didn’t earn and deserve? The guy hit into an out. Why should he get credit for the defense screwing up? Let’s say a hitter smashes the ball and it goes solidly into the stands for what 999 times out of a thousand would be a home run. But then the super golden child of fielders makes some crazy Jackie Chan triangle jump off the wall and with perfect timing has a highlight reel catch to wow people for decades. Does the hitter get credit for the homer even though he’s caught out? ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/24 "2017-08-08T02:14:05Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Laying down a bunt against a pitcher trying to not throw a buntable pitch is far harder than four easy tosses wide of the plate. > ETA: With the runner going, the batter _must_ make contact on that pitch. The degree of difficulty may vary but the principle is the same. You don’t have to actually execute the play. All you have to do is to inform the umpire of the desired outcome, and poof! it is granted. Is there any parallel in any other sport? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/25 "2017-08-08T02:21:47Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > The degree of difficulty may vary but the principle is the same. You don’t have to actually execute the play. All you have to do is to inform the umpire of the desired outcome, and poof! it is granted. > > Is there any parallel in any other sport? Bunting is far harder than an intentional walk. Besides, with an intentional walk, it’s the defense deciding to put a runner on. The offense can’t be allowed to bypass play and put the batter on base or move a baserunner along. It would be a bit of a travesty. Can you imagine a batter coming to the plate, waving four fingers and being given a home run? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/26 "2017-08-08T03:02:58Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Bunting is far harder than an intentional walk. > > Besides, with an intentional walk, it’s the defense deciding to put a runner on. The offense can’t be allowed to bypass play and put the batter on base or move a baserunner along. > It would be a bit of a travesty. > > Can you imagine a batter coming to the plate, waving four fingers and being given a home run? 😃 So, maybe a parallel would be, in football… the defense decides to give up a 3-yard run on 3rd and 10… they just tell the ref, ok advance the ball 3 yards… And yes, it’s a travesty… ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/27 "2017-08-08T12:22:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Doesn’t it “warp the numbers” to give a batter credit for something he didn’t earn and deserve? The guy hit into an out. Why should he get credit for the defense screwing up? > > Same thing. The guy hit into an out, \*then \*the defense screwed up. If his BA is to mean anything, it should show he hit into an out. The batter shouldn’t get credit for a hit, but the “out” doesn’t exist. I think the best solution would be to count like a sacrifice. Speedy players would benefit because they force errors (hurried throws) while regular joes would just get an slight uptick in their OBP. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/28 "2017-08-08T12:55:27Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > The batter shouldn’t get credit for a hit, but the “out” doesn’t exist. It did until the fielder bobbled it. Why let the batter off the hook for what he did? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/29 "2017-08-08T13:38:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It did until the fielder bobbled it. Why let the batter off the hook for what he did? That’s not the real problem. The out doesn’t exist. If there was one out when the error occurred, there is still only one out. Yet in the statistics, it’s technically recorded as an out against the batter. Which doesn’t exist. I’m not sure how it should be scored, but definitely not as an out. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/30 "2017-08-08T13:51:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Doesn’t it “warp the numbers” to give a batter credit for something he didn’t earn and deserve? No, of course not. As Will Munny said, deserve’s got nothing to do with it. The statistics are supposed to be a record of what happened. Saying a batter made an out when he didn’t make an out is not an accurate record of what happened. The rule is transparently illogical. We give a hitter a hit if the fielder is stupidly positioned, or if the fielder breaks the wrong way when the ball is hit, or if the fielder is fat and slow. In all cases that’s on the fielder, not the hitter. I have seen thousands of hits the hitter didn’t “deserve,” where he got the hit because the fielders were just slow or didn’t take the correct route to the ball. I bet Manny Ramirez personally was responsible for 200 such hits. In no other way do we give the hitter “credit” for hitting the ball hard, or remove credit if the fielder fails. Which makes sense; hits and outs should be a record of what happened and whether or not the guy reached base. But in the specific case of fielding ineptitude that involves the fielder getting to the ball but failing to make the play assuming the scorer doesn’t decide it was a hard play, a **nonexistent out** is put in the batter’s stats. That’s dumb. It’s akin to a hockey player scoring a goal but not getting credit for it because the goalie really blew it. Your argument that the out existed “until the fielder bobbled it” is nonsense. The out does not exist at all until an umpire declares someone out. Now, if you want to argue that the batter _should not be credited with a hit,_ I think you have a perfectly logical argument here. Like walks or HBPs, it would make perfect sense to count “reached on error” as a separate category (it would possibly be very interesting to see if some batters who make contact and run well, like Jose Altuve, are substantially more adept at getting on base this way than slow batters who strike out a lot, like Mark Trumbo. I’m not sure how big the difference would be.) At least then you are not manufacturing nonexistent outs. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/31 "2017-08-08T15:02:49Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Which is why an intentional walk involved pitches so far outside that they were very nearly wild pitches. And occasionally were with hilarious results. Or, alternately, were pitches that would be outside of a normal batter’s ability to hit, but Vlad Guerrero (with Stretch Armstrong arms and a 42" bat) would knock into the cheap seats. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/32 "2017-08-08T15:12:37Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > That’s not the real problem. If you’re using BA as a means to assess the batter’s own ability and performance (and why else would you care?), then absolutely the defense’s prowess following whatever the batter does is irrelevant. > [@RickJay](#): > > The statistics are supposed to be a record of what happened. Sometimes they’re supposed to be a way to see how good a player is. Same question - why do \*you \*care about BA? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/33 "2017-08-08T15:22:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The statistics are supposed to be a record of what happened. Saying a batter made an out when he didn’t make an out is not an accurate record of what happened. This. Baseball statistics exist NOT to act as sabermetrics, but to tell you what happened. In a baseball game, the visiting team gets three outs per inning played; the home team gets 24 outs, plus however many added outs were needed to end the game, if any. Giving hitters “outs” which don’t show up in any other category (pitchers stats, for example) would drive an accountant crazy. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/34 "2017-08-08T16:24:12Z")
There’s no obvious way to me to do it better. The runner doesn’t get credit for a SB. The catcher’s CS% doesn’t go down. In the case of a batter reaching on error, how could that scoring be improved? The batter didn’t reach by a hit or walk, so he didn’t really earn anything. The pitcher did what he was supposed to do. The fielder is charged with an error. Now, the scorer’s judgment when deciding SB or DI or hit or error can always be put to question. But the methodology in place is logical to me. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/35 "2017-08-08T16:48:39Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > There’s no obvious way to me to do it better. The runner doesn’t get credit for a SB. The catcher’s CS% doesn’t go down. > > In the case of a batter reaching on error, how could that scoring be improved? The batter didn’t reach by a hit or walk, so he didn’t really earn anything. The pitcher did what he was supposed to do. The fielder is charged with an error. There are two ways you could improve it: 1. Simply call it a hit. 2. Create a new classification, like a walk, that isn’t a hit or an out. Of course, this will result in batting averages changing (albeit not by that much; not a lot of errors are made anymore) so if someone bats .400 or something people will whine that it would have been different in the olden days. So, really, it should never have been done the way it’s being done, but you can’t change history. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/36 "2017-08-08T17:21:44Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > I’m not sure if you’re doing this specifically, so I don’t mean to call you out here, but I get the feeling sometimes that people are confusing defensive indifference with not wanting to risk a throw. They definitely aren’t the same thing. > > In a situation in the middle of a game where there’s a runner on first and a runner on third, and the runner on first takes off, if the catcher chooses not to throw to second because of the risk of the runner on third coming home, that is properly a stolen base. There’s no “indifference” involved. The catcher would definitely prefer not to let that guy get to second, but the risk there outweighs the reward. > > Indifference would apply in a situation where it’s the bottom of the 9th, there are two outs, there’s a man on first base, and the offensive team is trailing by three runs. It’s a situation where the only thing that matters is getting the batter out to end the game. If the person currently on first base happens to score, that is (in and of itself) immaterial to the outcome of the game. Other signs pointing to actual indifference would be that the first baseman isn’t holding the runner on, and that neither the shortstop nor the second baseman breaks to cover second when the runner moves. +1 The key here isn’t the decision not to pick off the runner, but rather the tactical choice given the play on the field to not risk it. When a defense makes the decision not to worry about the runner advancing even when there’s no other immediate, happening threat. . . a stolen base under those circumstances is just stat padding. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/37 "2017-08-08T19:31:54Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Which is why an intentional walk involved pitches so far outside that they were very nearly wild pitches. And occasionally were with hilarious results. And occasionally, the batter would manage to reach out and nail a pitch, thereby [ruining the other team’s day.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6YzVvtxoaY) ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/38 "2017-08-10T16:26:14Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There are two ways you could improve it: > > 1. Simply call it a hit. > 2. Create a new classification, like a walk, that isn’t a hit or an out. > > Of course, this will result in batting averages changing (albeit not by that much; not a lot of errors are made anymore) so if someone bats .400 or something people will whine that it would have been different in the olden days. So, really, it should never have been done the way it’s being done, but you can’t change history. I disagree that it would be an improvement to credit a batter with a hit when he reaches on an error. Mostly because it works against the pitcher’s stats. But also the batter gets credit for something he didn’t really earn. Hits and walks are earned. And if you simply call it a hit, do you even keep track of defensive errors? Creating a new classification would be slightly better. But even if reaching by error basically counted the same as a SAC (no at bat, but you could get an RBI) it still works unfairly against the pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/39 "2017-08-10T18:42:15Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I disagree that it would be an improvement to credit a batter with a hit when he reaches on an error. Mostly because it works against the pitcher’s stats. But also the batter gets credit for something he didn’t really earn. I get the “He didn’t earn it” sentiment. The problem is that you’re not applying it with any sort of statistical consistency. Suppose the left fielder is an incompetent, slow footed oaf, like Greg Luzinski. The batter hits a lazy fly ball that 99% of major league outfielders, and indeed almost all minor league outfielders, will easily catch. But the oaf breaks the wrong way, panics, slips and doesn’t get within ten feet of the ball. It bounces merrily away for a double. I saw Rance Mulliniks get an inside the park home run once, solely because the left fielder was Kevin Reimer, the worst MLB outfielder I’ve ever seen, and he bungled what should at most have been a bloop single into a ridiculous home run. Rance didn’t “deserve” that homer, but he in fact scored on his own hit without an according-to-Hoyle error taking place, so it’s a home run. That’s not an error; it’s counted as a double. But it was a catchable ball, and is no more “earned” than a well hit fly ball that pops out of a running fielder’s glove and is called an error. MOST fielding mistakes in major league baseball are not, technically, errors, even thought they can often be more egregious boneheadery than an actual bobbled play. Obviously, some hits are more “Deserved” or “earned” than others. Some doubles are rockets off the wall and some are topped bloop flies down the lines. Some singles are scorched up the middle and some are swinging bunts. And some outs are more deserved than others; sometimes a guy strikes out, and sometimes he hits a booming, 390-foot blast that would have been a home run but Steve makes an astounding leaping grab at the wall. We do not assign “deserve” statistics to those. If the ball goes over the fence it’s a home run and if it’s caught it’s an out; how hard the guy hit it isn’t the point. The stats are a reflection of what took place. Only with errors and the phantom outs they put into batters’ numbers are they not. > [@](#): > > Creating a new classification would be slightly better. But even if reaching by error basically counted the same as a SAC (no at bat, but you could get an RBI) it still works unfairly against the pitcher. ERA is a dumb stat, but you could still count it. There’s nothing preventing the official scorer from distinguishing runs scored by benefit of an error from ones that aren’t, even if errors don’t count against a batter’s stats. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999/40 "2017-08-14T00:02:30Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > This. Baseball statistics exist NOT to act as sabermetrics, but to tell you what happened. In a baseball game, the visiting team gets three outs per inning played; the home team gets 24 outs, plus however many added outs were needed to end the game, if any. Giving hitters “outs” which don’t show up in any other category (pitchers stats, for example) would drive an accountant crazy. 😛 But hitters aren’t given “outs” really. First batter singles, second batter grounds to the shortstop who tries for the force at second, but it’s too late. Batter is changed with a an AB, it’s scored as a fielder’s choice, but no out was recorded and there was no error. How do you want that scored? Or to make it more obvious. Score tied in the bottom of the ninth with a runner on third and one out. Batter hits a ground ball to short stop. He’s never going to throw to first base (even if that’s an easy out and even if the batter falls coming out of the batter’s box). It’s really pointless to even indicate the batter reached first. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-hate-defensive-indifference/792999.md?page=3)