# Why I Keep AR-15 Platform Rifles **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 8, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269 "2018-03-08T23:54:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/61 "2018-03-09T22:58:13Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > When Bone states “personal defense both at home and when I’m out and about” (paraphrasing) then immediately follows up with commentary regarding CCW’s, he is no longer talking about AR-15’s when he’s “out and about”. He’s talking about conceal carrying a handgun. You can’t conceal an AR-15 (not well, anyway). You _can_ conceal one, but not in a manner that would be particularly useful for personal defense. It would be in sort of box or case - more of a “get it up to the clock tower undetected” sort of concealment. It’s honestly a rather scattered OP - he makes arguments that tread on one another. Touting the AR-15 for its ease of use by amateurs makes me doubt the idea is to make precisely-aimed shots with an aim to avoiding missing and doing collateral damage - it sounds more like an endorsement of spray-and-pray. Which, AR-15 or not, wouldn’t be a really great personal defense tactic when you’re defending your personage out in public and your attacker might not be standing in front of a cement backdrop. And of course that CCW business it’s really hard to buy the “you’ll all be perfectly safe from me; my guns never leave their gunsafe at the house” argument. And of course apocolypse-mongering pretty much always has a “I’m champing at the bit to murder people without consequence” vibe, just by its very nature. Honestly, \*nothing \*about the OP gives me confidence about the safety of the people around him. Not that I’m _personally_ worried - I’m a few states away. I’m not specifically knowledgeable about the AR-15, but I’m pretty sure I’m out of range. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/62 "2018-03-09T23:33:16Z")
He was talking about keeping his AR-15 locked away, a rifle. I am certain he meant handguns when referring to CCW’s. It’s the only thing that makes sense. There are fucking assholes out there that openly walk around neighborhoods with AR-15’s and the like slung over their shoulders, which is legal, but makes you an asshole. That kind of behavior doesn’t make anyone feel safe, in fact, the opposite. I don’t get the vibe from **Bone** that he is even remotely like one of those people. From everything I have read on here on his opinions on guns, he’s always come across as very rational to me. It’s a tough OP…trying to quantify personal feelings with laws in light of recent shootings is difficult for the rational pro-gun crowd to illustrate, especially to the anti-gun crowd. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/63 "2018-03-09T23:50:37Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > He was talking about keeping his AR-15 locked away, a rifle. I am certain he meant handguns when referring to CCW’s. It’s the only thing that makes sense. There are fucking assholes out there that openly walk around neighborhoods with AR-15’s and the like slung over their shoulders, which is legal, but makes you an asshole. That kind of behavior doesn’t make anyone feel safe, in fact, the opposite. > > I don’t get the vibe from **Bone** that he is even remotely like one of those people. From everything I have read on here on his opinions on guns, he’s always come across as very rational to me. It’s a tough OP…trying to quantify personal feelings with laws in light of recent shootings is difficult for the rational pro-gun crowd to illustrate, especially to the anti-gun crowd. It’s mostly the jumbled confluence of ideas that makes his post disconcerting. If I make the most charitable interpretation of his post, he wants two specific things: He wants to be able to secretly carry a handgun around for the specific purpose of being able to whip it out and take out threats he encounters in his wanderings. It is presumed that he is 100% accurate in his identification of threats - and that he’s going to run into threats. He wants to have an AR-15 locked away for home defense locked away at his house, available for him and his family members to use against threats to them at home. Specifically the type of threats that give sufficient advance warning to allow him to extract the gun and prepare for combat. And, similarly to the above, it is presumed that such well-telegraphed home-invading threats are a real and pressing danger. Now, to me personally, a good guy with a gun is just another asshole with a gun who clearly has some sort of distorted fear-filled view of the world such that I consider his reasoning and threat assessment to be wildly unreliable - but I don’t live in an area where people are dropping like flies whenever I leave the house, and maybe he is, so I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he _is_ in peril whenever he leaves his fortified bunker. The idea that he could use a military grade rifle to deal with threats to his house supports this view. One presumes that he doesn’t whip that thing out every time he hears a noise in the kitchen - though perhaps he really _has_ perforated several rats and the occasional family member getting a midnight snack. But no, more likely he wants it for what he says he wants it - looters and crazed mobs. Which are approaching his _house_. Looters and pillagers just going from house to house robbing, killing, raping - total literal anarchy. If he thinks that’s an even vaguely plausible scenario then he clearly is living in a complete hellhole with no semblance of civilization to be seen. In which case cowering behind the sights of a weapon makes perfect logical sense. In the civilized world where I live, though, ban that shit. It clearly does more harm than good. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/64 "2018-03-09T23:58:43Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If your position is that as long as there are people who will take an extreme view, then you will take an extreme position, do you recognize that there will be people who will dig in their heels and take the extreme position on the other side, specifically because of the extreme position you take? Not just any people, but people in positions of power. If it’s just outliers here and there, it’s no big deal. But when [HR 5087](https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/5087/cosponsors)has 173 co sponsors in Congress to enact a new assault weapon ban, it’s more serious. I want the idea of bans to be stamped out, to be a third rail in politics where any proposal would not be taken seriously, where a person pushing this type of gun control would be radioactive. If that happens, then I’d feel comfortable approaching a compromise. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > It really is the people in the middle that you need to be reaching out to for support here, and taking an extreme position because someone on the other side has an extreme position doesn’t actually get their support. The majority of the country wants stricter gun controls. Not enough to get an amendment passed or modified, not yet anyway. But ignoring the will of a growing majority, and digging in on an extreme position protected by words on a parchment will give the “gun grabbers” more allies every day, and unfortunately, at every mass shooting. It is in your interested to come to the table now, rather than later, when 2A doesn’t give you the shield it does, without it, your position is completely untenable. I disagree with your assessment. I don’t think I need more moderates who will be willing to give away the farm when there is an uphill battle. Moderates don’t bring passion to an issue, don’t donate their time and money, don’t fund lawsuits, don’t call their congress people, etc. What I want are more single issue voters who through their collective action can turn elections. Dedicated passionate support from single issue voters are more valuable than luke warm broad based interest that will flip on any given day. Of course, I’d take support where ever it’s available, and will support any legit group that supports gun rights, but it’s not moderates that will decide the issue. Maybe one day the nationwide sentiment will shift significantly and collectively we’ll decide this part of the American experiment isn’t worth it, we’ll change the constitution, have mandatory buybacks of most of the guns, etc. I don’t think that day is anywhere close. > [@bucketybuck](#): > > As a non-American I can’t even read past this part, it breaks my brain a little. > > What the hell has you people living so scared? Not scared in the slightest. Just prepared. The preparation overlaps with personal enjoyment of target practicing so that works out well. Just like having a fire extinguisher at home doesn’t mean I’m scared of fires. I’d prefer to never use it, and it costs money to keep them updated, but I do so. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bone, I don’t have a problem with you or any other law abiding person buying any legal weaponry. My response was about whether or not certain weapons should be legal, not whether it’s reasonable for anyone to want a specific weapon. I’m in favor of things that target the person, not the weapon. > [@Ravenman](#): > > I like and respect you, and I appreciate the thought you put into your post. I must ask a question on this, though. > > Do you think there is any weapon that has moral stature or a will of its own? Seems to me that this statement could, as written, be applied to even things that societies have banned for being inhumane, like nerve agents. If a statement applies equally to something like a rock and something like Sarin, I am personally unmoved by it, because I see it as providing no insight. The quote was more of a pithy comment, not meant as a substitute for substantive discussion. I regret the distraction actually because it’s not necessary for the points I wanted to make. > [@begbert2](#): > > I kept reading, and noticed that he immediately started talking about CCW permits. (Which is particularly bizarre in connection with a thread about AR-15s - how do you casually conceal _those?_) The reasons I enumerated are separate ideas. The thread was in response to discussion about AR-15 platform rifles, but I also included the first reason regarding CCW pistols for the sake of completeness. I’m not a proponent of carrying slung rifles around. I think it’s garish and IMO, probably correlates with asshattery. This is what I think could be a good idea: > [@Bone](#): > > …but if I were to ignore the larger landscape I would be okay with making it harder to obtain firearms, more rigor on screening, more aggressive pursuit disarming those with certain mental illnesses, treating threats and earlier signs of violence more harshly (remember when bullying was often overlooked but now it’s not?), expanding how and when a person can be considered prohibited, and a more expansive way to disarm those who become prohibited. This focuses on people, while preserving the ability for law abiding folks to possess these types of weapons. And if there were proposals like this, I think they could pass. But here after tragedy we have more bans proposed, and nothing about the people that perpetrate these crimes. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/65 "2018-03-10T00:22:52Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > This is what I think could be a good idea: > > This focuses on people, while preserving the ability for law abiding folks to possess these types of weapons. And if there were proposals like this, I think they could pass. But here after tragedy we have more bans proposed, and nothing about the people that perpetrate these crimes. The problem with involuntary incarceration -excuse me, _commitment_- of allegedly unstable people is that you are practically _begging_ for it to be abused. It’s a carte blanche invitation for anybody that somebody doesn’t like to be incarcerated. Arranging an objective assessment for “dangerously unstable” would be nigh-impossible and would pretty much certainly be used to enforce racist ideals, and other policy goals perhaps only tangentially related to public safety. Suffice to say you wouldn’t want me in the post of assessor - I think that anybody who thinks having a gun makes them safer is insane. A blanket banning of guns, if it were somehow miraculously pulled off, _would_ stop spree shooters (among other socially beneficial effects) and the only real harm it would do would be to make certain people feel less secure. (And it would violate their outdated constitutional right, and if we just _took_ them we’d be denying them just compensation, and collectors would be annoyed, etc, etc, etc). Long and short of it, as long as you’re engaging in wild fantasies, it can seem like a much better idea - if you’re not one of those people who feels insecure. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/66 "2018-03-10T00:24:26Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > It’s mostly the jumbled confluence of ideas that makes his post disconcerting. If I make the most charitable interpretation of his post, he wants two specific things: > > He wants to be able to secretly carry a handgun around for the specific purpose of being able to whip it out and take out threats he encounters in his wanderings. It is presumed that he is 100% accurate in his identification of threats - and that he’s going to run into threats. > > He wants to have an AR-15 locked away for home defense locked away at his house, available for him and his family members to use against threats to them at home. Specifically the type of threats that give sufficient advance warning to allow him to extract the gun and prepare for combat. And, similarly to the above, it is presumed that such well-telegraphed home-invading threats are a real and pressing danger. > > Now, to me personally, a good guy with a gun is just another asshole with a gun who clearly has some sort of distorted fear-filled view of the world such that I consider his reasoning and threat assessment to be wildly unreliable - but I don’t live in an area where people are dropping like flies whenever I leave the house, and maybe he is, so I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he _is_ in peril whenever he leaves his fortified bunker. > > The idea that he could use a military grade rifle to deal with threats to his house supports this view. One presumes that he doesn’t whip that thing out every time he hears a noise in the kitchen - though perhaps he really _has_ perforated several rats and the occasional family member getting a midnight snack. But no, more likely he wants it for what he says he wants it - looters and crazed mobs. Which are approaching his _house_. Looters and pillagers just going from house to house robbing, killing, raping - total literal anarchy. > > If he thinks that’s an even vaguely plausible scenario then he clearly is living in a complete hellhole with no semblance of civilization to be seen. In which case cowering behind the sights of a weapon makes perfect logical sense. > > In the civilized world where I live, though, ban that shit. It clearly does more harm than good. I think the tone and language you use in some of your statements here are part of the problem. “Perforated several rats and the occasional family member”? “Fortified bunker”? “Whip it out and take out threats he encounters in his wanderings”? You sure are painting a grim, negative picture of the OP. Also, this fascination with “crazed mobs” and “zombies”…eh. To me it’s not impossible or implausible to envision a disaster scenario, especially in a large urban area, where essential services are unavailable for long stretches of time and that having said AR-15 would be an excellent weapon for deterrence from having your home or place of business looted, or worse. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/67 "2018-03-10T00:44:01Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I think the tone and language you use in some of your statements here are part of the problem. “Perforated several rats and the occasional family member”? “Fortified bunker”? “Whip it out and take out threats he encounters in his wanderings”? You sure are painting a grim, negative picture of the OP. > > Also, this fascination with “crazed mobs” and “zombies”…eh. To me it’s not impossible or implausible to envision a disaster scenario, especially in a large urban area, where essential services are unavailable for long stretches of time and that having said AR-15 would be an excellent weapon for deterrence from having your home or place of business looted, or worse. > > YMMV. See, there’s part of the problem - I _do_ have a hard time envisioning such a disaster scenario, because I live in a place that’s not by the coast and is not subject to the kind of disaster which would allow our government to go Full Katrina and allow society to completely collapse for an extended period of time due to sheer incompetence. That’s just not part of my world. I mean, yes, I get it - in my lifetime we’ve seen a (gun-loving) government screw the pooch so hard that it would presumably justify blasting the living crap out of anybody who approached your porch. But my brain still rejects the idea that that’s a _likely_ scenario. If it _is_ a likely scenario, such that you’re actually living in fear on daily basis - then damn, get yourself a gun! Hold it dear! Tuck it under your pillow! Name it Vera! But in my area, we don’t have justified fear. Still have guns, though. And Preppers. Yep - people who actively _wish_ for an apocalypse specifically because it would justify their insane preparations and sunk costs. It’s…not a perspective I can respect. For me to presume that guns are justified for personal defense, I have to assume things are _bad_. You want a CCW? You must be seeing threats _regularly_, all around. Or have a miscalibrated danger assessor. Or a Rambo fantasy. Or you read a lot of news and thus have lost the ability to scale the number of incidents you hear about with the area they occur in (see: miscalibrated danger assessor). I have only three options here: 1. The OP is nuts. This is not an option I like. 2. The Op lives in a crazy nightmare world where danger and terror lurk around every corner. This is not an option I’m capable of properly visualizing. 3. _ **I** _ live in a crazy nightmare world where danger and terror lurk around every corner, and am the crazy one for _not_ having a gun. This…I suppose it’s possible, but there’s reason to think it’s not the case. Exhibit A: I don’t have a gun and am still alive. For example. What am I to do? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/68 "2018-03-10T00:56:34Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The problem with involuntary incarceration -excuse me, _commitment_- of allegedly unstable people is that you are practically _begging_ for it to be abused. It’s a carte blanche invitation for anybody that somebody doesn’t like to be incarcerated. Arranging an objective assessment for “dangerously unstable” would be nigh-impossible and would pretty much certainly be used to enforce racist ideals, and other policy goals perhaps only tangentially related to public safety. We already have a mechanism for involuntary commitment. I’m saying the parameters should be adjusted such that folks like the FL shooter would have triggered it, etc. > [@](#): > > A blanket banning of guns, if it were somehow miraculously pulled off, _would_ stop spree shooters (among other socially beneficial effects) and the only real harm it would do would be to make certain people feel less secure. A blanket banning of guns would not stop spree shooters. A magical disappearing of guns that already exist would. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/69 "2018-03-10T00:57:29Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > … What am I to do? You could start by not assuming that someone is “crazy” just because they evaluate the costs and benefits of something differently than you do. That’s one suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/70 "2018-03-10T01:17:47Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > **For me to presume that guns are justified for personal defense, I have to assume things are _bad_. You want a CCW? You must be seeing threats _regularly_, all around.** Or have a miscalibrated danger assessor. Or a Rambo fantasy. Or you read a lot of news and thus have lost the ability to scale the number of incidents you hear about with the area they occur in (see: miscalibrated danger assessor). I think the opposite is true. I think if you “assume” anything, especially that where you live everything is always peaches, cream and sunshine, then you’re ripe for that off chance that you _could_ be victimized. I believe that most if not almost all of the students at VA Tech, Columbine, Sandy Hook, etc, wherever had a reasonable assumption of safety. And these are not geographically clustered together, they’re _everywhere_. So to assume it can’t happen to you because you live in rural Idaho (amongst admittedly crazy “preppers” no less) is a false assumption and an illusion of safety. Sure, many places are much safer than others, but no place is truly 100% safe, and the more rural you get, the longer it typically takes law enforcement to get to you to help you. The takeaway isn’t that CCW carriers are “scared pussies with a Rambo complex” (although I am sure some are), rather, they have taken steps to train themselves to react to a situation, as unlikely as it may be, in a manner that ends a threat with the least amount of harm to innocent lives. How many times have you seen a liquor store owner in a YouTube video getting ready to be robbed and the guy behind the register whips out a shotgun and the perpetrator flees? Nobody got shot, the crime was averted. That’s what I’m talking about. There’s no paranoia, just preparation for anything. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/71 "2018-03-10T01:22:57Z")
In modern times, I don’t know of any breakouts of civil unrest in the US so bad it gave citizens license to shoot people at long range, in high enough numbers to make “efficiency” a dealbreaker. So if you’re asking us to balance the extremely low likelihood of this kind of event with the much higher likelihood of someone turning the gun on innocent people, then I don’t know what to say except the answer is in the math. I’d be perfectly okay if we limited the accessibility of semi-automatic rifles simply by taxing them so much only a few people can afford to own them. This way the **Bones** of society could still get them (even if they have to take out a loan), but a broke-ass desperado wouldn’t. Would this be an acceptable inconvenience to the OP? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/72 "2018-03-10T01:44:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > In modern times, I don’t know of any breakouts of civil unrest in the US so bad it gave citizens license to shoot people at long range, in high enough numbers to make “efficiency” a dealbreaker. So if you’re asking us to balance the extremely low likelihood of this kind of event with the much higher likelihood of someone turning the gun on innocent people, then I don’t know what to say except the answer is in the math. > > I’d be perfectly okay if we limited the accessibility of semi-automatic rifles simply by taxing them so much only a few people can afford to own them. This way the **Bones** of society could still get them (even if they have to take out a loan), but a broke-ass desperado wouldn’t. Would this be an acceptable inconvenience to the OP? If students at Kent State had been armed, they would have been perfectly justified in shooting back at National Guard troops. You know, those highly trained, disciplined soldiers that panicked and opened fire with M1 Garands on a bunch of students that weren’t being violent? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/73 "2018-03-10T02:40:23Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You must be seeing threats _regularly_, all around. Or have a miscalibrated danger assessor. … Or you read a lot of news and thus have lost the ability to scale the number of incidents you hear about with the area they occur in. If it helps to provide perspective, consider that this is precisely how the gun owner struggles to assess the world-view of those who wish to take guns away from the vast majority of law-abiding gun owners over the crimes of a very few. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/74 "2018-03-10T03:24:10Z")
The argument of the gun owner for self defense is that you never know when it might be YOU. Yes, it’s a small, small chance, but as long as that chance exists, people that own guns feel more protected. I no longer own any guns, not because I don’t want to but because I sold them for cash I desperately needed. I had a Ruger 1911 that I wish I still had. So now my castle (apartment) is defended by an aluminum baseball bat, a pump BB/pellet gun and a couple Daisy Red Riders. I might get lucky and put the would be thief’s eye out. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/75 "2018-03-10T03:51:28Z")
I forgot to comment on this: > [@Ravenman](#): > > I like and respect you, and I appreciate the thought you put into your post. And I you as well. If I see you have posted I will be sure to make a point to read it no matter the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/76 "2018-03-10T10:55:34Z")
The thing I’m noting about Bone’s OP is that it’s an example of ‘micro’ thinking vs. ‘macro’ thinking. As in microeconomics vs. macroeconomics. I don’t say that to minimize or downplay the thinking, just that it looks at the issue from a certain scale. It’s like the idea of unemployment. If your brother in law is unemployed, you can rightfully suggest he get trained up on new skills, so he can improve his opportunity to get a job. If 40 million people are unemployed, the same strategy no longer works, you can’t train up 40 million people and think you’re going to make a dent in the unemployment rate. Solutions that work on the small scale often don’t work on the large scale. With public safety, I believe it’s similar. On the small scale, Bone may legitimately\* be safer having guns. On the large scale, you’re not going to reduce murders and assaults by giving people more guns. On the large scale, the country isn’t made safer by there being 300 million guns here. We aren’t, by and large, safer than people who live in countries with fewer or more restricted gun ownership. So, while I can respect Bone’s thoughts, I don’t think his argument should form the basis of public policy, because it’s only a valid argument on the micro level, and we need policy to be based on macro level ideas. \*I think it is questionable whether or not gun owners are actually less likely to be harmed than non gun owners, but that’s not an argument I’m looking to hash out. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/77 "2018-03-10T11:14:22Z")
Bone, I have a question for you. Do you also invest in physical security? I mean, ok, you’re worried about potential intruders. Did you upgrade your front door to something that can’t be kicked in? (metal frame, metal door, some kind of serious security deadbolt) Did you upgrade your windows to something somewhat brick resistant? Maybe put a fence around the place and a locked gate for a second, outer layer to discourage people casing the place? And did you actually do the math or do you believe the gun is protecting you from “gut feel”? Because let’s say that the odds of you shooting an intruder are twice as high as a family member getting the gun and killing themselves or someone else in the house. That’s probably an optimistic estimate, by the way. Well, if you invested in physical security such that your place is visually much more protected than your neighbors, your chance of getting broken into probably plummets. Maybe 5 times less likely. At which point the gun is adding more risk than it takes away. Similarly, carrying CCW, you might get attacked by an armed intruder and save yourself. Or a cop might see the weapon and kill you before you can surrender. If you stick to safe places on the good side of town, the risk of needing to use your CCW plummets. But the odds of getting shot by a cop probably increase. Again, there may not be any gain. Unfortunately, the data on this is somewhat controversial. I’m not sure if any conclusive study works out the exact odds. All I’m trying to say is that what you think provides protection may in fact not. I don’t know if you’re open to even considering that possibility, I’m just explaining why it might exist. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/78 "2018-03-10T11:22:10Z")
Also, from a tactical perspective: If your door can be kicked in or easily picked, if there’s an unlocked window, all a burglar has to do is quietly let themselves in. Then search the place to make sure no one is home. If you’re there asleep and they are already at your bedroom with their own gun, this means that you either : a. Have to basically have your gun under your pillow or in a nightstand, already loaded, with a round chambered. This is like keeping gasoline in your bedroom next to an overloaded electrical outlet. b. Aren’t ever going to get to your gun. It provides you no protection if you don’t have it ready when the attackers arrive. If the Zeta cartel hit squad ever shows up at your house or something, you need time to get into a good tactical position, get cover, get your body armor and helmet on (you have that, right? You don’t just own a gun and no armor, right?), and get ready. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/79 "2018-03-10T12:22:15Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I have firearms for defensive purposes, only. . Great. You are afraid of the people you live with. Congratulations. Is that the life you wanted? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/80 "2018-03-10T12:49:46Z")
I asked: > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Question for **Bone** : > Granted that a gun, AR-15 will do for this example, offers you an advantage in the cases of civil unrest etc… as you described. Does it still confer the same advantage if the people you are trying to protect yourself and your family against also carry AR-15’s? Or does that level the playing field? You answered: > [@Bone](#): > > The rifle provides a benefit, not necessarily an advantage and yes that benefit exists regardless of the actions of the people meaning to do harm. The relative value of that benefit increases with the disparity in arms between myself and the attacker(s). Which didn’t address my question in the least. I’ll ask again: Does the “benefit” of your AR-15 decrease with greater availability and possession of said rifle to those you’re trying to defend yourself and your family from/against under the circumstances you described in the OP. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269.md?page=5)