# Why I Keep AR-15 Platform Rifles **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 8, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269 "2018-03-08T23:54:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/81 "2018-03-10T12:55:11Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > If students at Kent State had been armed, they would have been perfectly justified in shooting back at National Guard troops. You know, those highly trained, disciplined soldiers that panicked and opened fire with M1 Garands on a bunch of students that weren’t being violent? I can’t tell if you’re being facetious or not, but I’ll bite. Let’s say students had returned fire on these panicky troops. Do you think more of them would have survived or less? Because I’m thinking what ended up being a fubar situation would’ve have been even worse if you had panicking students and panicking troops exchanging shots. Lots of innocent people dying in crossfire, not to mention the troops would’ve taken more license (not less) to react with aggression. The students might have been justified in shooting back, but I don’t see this an example of where adding more guns to the mix would’ve helped. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/82 "2018-03-10T13:14:52Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I can’t tell if you’re being facetious or not, but I’ll bite. > > Let’s say students had returned fire on these panicky troops. Do you think more of them would have survived or less? Because I’m thinking what ended up being a fubar situation would’ve have been even worse if you had panicking students and panicking troops exchanging shots. Lots of innocent people dying in crossfire, not to mention the troops would’ve taken more license (not less) to react with aggression. > > The students might have been justified in shooting back, but I don’t see this an example of where adding more guns to the mix would’ve helped. Oh, lots more of them would have died. I guess I was being semi-facetious. They would have been justified, but many more would have died, on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/83 "2018-03-10T13:22:47Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Great. You are afraid of the people you live with. Congratulations. Is that the life you wanted? And you live in a crime-free world? Is that the life you wanted? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/84 "2018-03-10T13:24:40Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I can’t tell if you’re being facetious or not, but I’ll bite. > > Let’s say students had returned fire on these panicky troops. Do you think more of them would have survived or less? Because I’m thinking what ended up being a fubar situation would’ve have been even worse if you had panicking students and panicking troops exchanging shots. Lots of innocent people dying in crossfire, not to mention the troops would’ve taken more license (not less) to react with aggression. > > The students might have been justified in shooting back, but I don’t see this an example of where adding more guns to the mix would’ve helped. Yeah, really. Those national guard units have machine guns. Normally they wouldn’t have them for riot control but they are in the armory. It would have been justifiable to use them on active shooters. In addition, the way the media would have portrayed it as 'violent traitors assault national guard soldiers, 5 national guard soldiers killed. Also 500 traitors did not survive" ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/85 "2018-03-10T13:26:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Wrong. I CCW every day and am not “looking for trouble”, and if at all possible I don’t intend to wait until an aggressor has shot at me before shooting back. I’d shoot first in various circumstances were a reasonable person would feel threatened, even when the bad guy hadn’t yet fired a shot. Then hey, guess what? You’re looking for trouble. > [@](#): > > There’s certainly no legal requirement that you wait until someone has shot at you before you shoot back. Explain to the jury how the guy who shot first isn’t the baddie. Hint: You’re not the Good Guy just because you’re you. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/86 "2018-03-10T13:55:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Wrong. I CCW every day and am not “looking for trouble”, and if at all possible I don’t intend to wait until an aggressor has shot at me before shooting back. I’d shoot first in various circumstances were a reasonable person would feel threatened, even when the bad guy hadn’t yet fired a shot. ETA: There’s certainly no legal requirement that you wait until someone has shot at you before you shoot back. Where do you live that you feel the need to CCaW? Was there an incident in your life where you feared for your life and which compelled you to CCaW? Have you ever felt the need to draw it in anger? ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/87 "2018-03-10T14:10:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Then hey, guess what? You’re looking for trouble. > > Explain to the jury how the guy who shot first isn’t the baddie. Hint: You’re not the Good Guy just because you’re you. Crimes do happen, and violent crimes do happen. You can take every precaution to avoid danger, but violent crimes do occur. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/88 "2018-03-10T14:27:54Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The thing I’m noting about Bone’s OP is that it’s an example of ‘micro’ thinking vs. ‘macro’ thinking. As in microeconomics vs. macroeconomics. I don’t say that to minimize or downplay the thinking, just that it looks at the issue from a certain scale. > > It’s like the idea of unemployment. If your brother in law is unemployed, you can rightfully suggest he get trained up on new skills, so he can improve his opportunity to get a job. If 40 million people are unemployed, the same strategy no longer works, you can’t train up 40 million people and think you’re going to make a dent in the unemployment rate. Solutions that work on the small scale often don’t work on the large scale. > > With public safety, I believe it’s similar. On the small scale, Bone may legitimately\* be safer having guns. On the large scale, you’re not going to reduce murders and assaults by giving people more guns. On the large scale, the country isn’t made safer by there being 300 million guns here. We aren’t, by and large, safer than people who live in countries with fewer or more restricted gun ownership. > > So, while I can respect Bone’s thoughts, I don’t think his argument should form the basis of public policy, because it’s only a valid argument on the micro level, and we need policy to be based on macro level ideas. > \*I think it is questionable whether or not gun owners are actually less likely to be harmed than non gun owners, but that’s not an argument I’m looking to hash out. Good post – I agree with this. ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/89 "2018-03-10T14:28:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Then hey, guess what? You’re looking for trouble. > > Explain to the jury how the guy who shot first isn’t the baddie. Hint: You’re not the Good Guy just because you’re you. I think it would mean something to the jury that the guy you shot had five other people’s wallets on him and a couple of armed robbery and home invasion convictions, while all you had was a speeding ticket a couple of years ago. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/90 "2018-03-10T14:31:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Where do you live that you feel the need to CCaW? I live in Utah, but the reason I carry is not because my place of residence is particularly dangerous. Frankly, it’s less dangerous than much of the country, but, and this is key, it’s not danger-free. I assess that the day-to-day cost and inconvenience of carrying around a firearm are quite minimal, and the benefits are something more than that, IMHO, so I do. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Was there an incident in your life where you feared for your life and which compelled you to CCaW? Yes, I suppose an incident years back was something of a motivating factor. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Have you ever felt the need to draw it in anger? No. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/91 "2018-03-10T14:34:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > … Explain to the jury how the guy who shot first isn’t the baddie. Hint: You’re not the Good Guy just because you’re you. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Zimmerman shot first and was able to explain to a jury’s satisfaction why. You’re simply wrong if you think our laws dictate that I must wait until I’ve been shot at to shoot an aggressor. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/92 "2018-03-10T14:38:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I live in Utah, but the reason I carry is not because my place of residence is particularly dangerous. Frankly, it’s less dangerous than much of the country, but, and this is key, it’s not danger-free. I assess that the day-to-day cost and inconvenience of carrying around a firearm are quite minimal, and the benefits are something more than that, IMHO, so I do. Are people who choose not to CCaW in more dangerous environs getting the cost/benefit calculus wrong? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, I suppose an incident years back was something of a motivating factor. Can you share it? How would have things turned out differently if you were armed? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No. “In anger” was meant to mean, in a time of proper need, not emotional state. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/93 "2018-03-10T14:56:50Z")
Let me see if I’ve got it right **Bone**. You assess that an AR-15 platform weapon provides you personally with more safety. You base that not on the routine home invasion concern but on a scenario in which there is “local civil unrest” as the result of something like a natural disaster or political strife like the LA riots. The fact that it can used fairly easily at long range by those with little training (and can fire many shots rapidly) with a high “level of effectiveness” is part of its appeal. In short the fact that fairly unskilled users can take out lots of people with these things quickly and from a distance is why you want one or more in your house. For the sake of the discussion let us accept your perception that the risk of such an event is non-trivial. Let us further accept that “bad guys” in that “civil unrest” scenario do not target your household _for_ your weapons cache. And accept that you and your wife will be able to accurately assess from that distance who is and is not a threat and not kill any multiple individuals who are not an imminent major threat to you. Given all that is your personal safety increased or decrease by more or the average people out there dealing with and part of civil unrest and therefore rioting or desperate for food etc., having these weapons too? Does your argument also apply to owning a fully automatic weapon? A bazooka? IF, and accept this for the sake of discussion as I accept your assessments, the risk to society as a whole is significantly greater because that weapon’s efficacy at allowing fairly unskilled users to kill many rapidly and from a distance _amplifies_ the harms of a bad guy event when one is used (even as the number of bad guy events stays constant) THEN is there a place for severely limiting how many of these weapons are out there, if such could be done? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/94 "2018-03-10T14:59:31Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > I think it would mean something to the jury that the guy you shot had five other people’s wallets on him and a couple of armed robbery and home invasion convictions, while all you had was a speeding ticket a couple of years ago. If the charge against you is homicide, that sort of outweighs petty larceny, wouldn’t you think? You’d better have a damn good argument about why you \*needed \*to take a life. And that argument had better work not only a judge and jury, but on whatever deit(ies) you believe will judge you later on. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/95 "2018-03-10T15:02:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not to put too fine a point on it, but Zimmerman shot first and was able to explain to a jury’s satisfaction why. You’re simply wrong if you think our laws dictate that I must wait until I’ve been shot at to shoot an aggressor. Zimmerman got off but lots of people consider him a murderer and shun him as such. His reputation is forever fucked up because he killed an unarmed teenager for reasons that have come under intense scrutiny (to say the least). No one sane would really want to be in Zimmerman’s shoes. Bu yeah, if the only thing you’re concerned about is staying out of jail, then I guess he’s a valid example. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/96 "2018-03-10T15:04:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not to put too fine a point on it, but Zimmerman shot first and was able to explain to a jury’s satisfaction why. I think you know why. > [@](#): > > You’re simply wrong if you think our laws dictate that I must wait until I’ve been shot at to shoot an aggressor. Who said that? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/97 "2018-03-10T15:08:48Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Crimes do happen, and violent crimes do happen. You can take every precaution to avoid danger, but violent crimes do occur. So it’s far better to \*deter \*them from occurring, isn’t it? Concealing your weapon doesn’t do that. Carrying it openly _might_. But that isn’t what the gun “rights” crowd is proud of doing, for some reason that just never gets explored. Is there something more than a desire, one even they won’t state and maybe not even to themselves, to live out the Good Guy dream? _That’s_ looking for trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/98 "2018-03-10T15:24:00Z")
I don’t get the adoration of the AR-15. A very good acquaintance of mine used to be a democrat and a gun owner. She enjoyed range shooting. When the fear arose that they (AR-15s) might be banned, her and her husband started buying them up. Now they are considering moving to a more AR-15 friendly state. She voted for and staunchly defends Trump. All she can talk about is guns and her beloved AR. But it’s not just her. I know several people like that. And of course the media is rife with such stories. Take this OP for example. Without going back and rereading it answer this - is it about AR-15s or about justifying gun ownership for self defense? I propose it’s about AR-15s. If it’s about self defense then then almost the entire OP case could be made without mentioning a caliber. As a long time hunter and plinker, and as a looong time gun owner I just don’t get the mystique of that gun. I own two handguns - both for self defense. There are plenty of guns, long and short, that will do a better job than the AR. So what if it gets banned? There are better solutions. (Yeah I know, slippery slope right?) I’m not necessarily for banning them I just don’t get the gaga over them. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/99 "2018-03-10T15:33:56Z")
I have a couple ARs. They don’t do much for me. I much prefer the old-school **FAL**. They’re fun to shoot and fun to tinker with. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269/100 "2018-03-10T15:34:49Z")
I’ve always admired that one - “I need to get an AR-15 to keep Obama from grabbing it!” Colt’s stockholders thank all of you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-keep-ar-15-platform-rifles/810269.md?page=6)