Why I Keep AR-15 Platform Rifles

When I hear proposals to ban the AR-15 or things along those lines, I am reminded of this quote:“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”

I’m a firearm owner, but I do not hunt, collect, or compete. I have firearms for defensive purposes, only. With that ownership there is a cost – a literal cost in terms of dollars, and a cost in terms of time spent practicing, a cost in securing the weapons, space used, inconvenience, etc. And while I don’t think it’s reasonable to prepare for all possible circumstances, there are two scenarios which I prepare for that involve firearms.
[ol][li]**Defense of myself and family when I am at home and out and about. ** In my state the vast majority of residents are unable to obtain a CCW. This isn’t about inconvenience. Inconvenience I could deal with. If there were simply a higher burden, in testing, fees, training, etc. but those hurdles were objective and could be met, then I’d be less opposed to them. I’ve said previously, I could pay a higher fee, take POST training, a 1 year waiting period, whatever. Unfortunately that’s not the case. But if I were able to obtain a CCW, my personal interest would significantly decrease in advancing the gun rights movement further. Sure I’d still be opposed in principal to many of the gun control proposals, primarily to the extent they are bans, but CCW is the end game.[/li]
[li]**Defense during temporary local civil unrest. ** In one of the many threads there was a link describing the AR-15 platform rifle, its ease of use, low recoil, accuracy at range, etc. The article describes those things as negatives for civilian ownership. In my mind, those are the very reasons I own them. They are fun to practice with though somewhat expensive, but I hope to never use them for defensive purposes. When not practicing, the rifles sit securely in my safe, harming no one. [/ol][/li]I have previously been opposed to things that were merely inconvenient, and from a principled point of view I still am. But recent events have given me pause and I think I’d be less opposed to mere inconvenience. As long as they don’t stymie the 2 reasons listed above, then in principle I’d be fine with hurdles in place to weed out bad actors if those hurdles actually do that. The issue I most often see is that the hurdles and restrictions and bans favored by those in favor of additional gun control would prevent me from satisfying my two core purposes while at the same time not accomplish the stated goals of such proposals – to reduce crime with firearms. A longer waiting period is an inconvenient hurdle. But a restriction outright on magazines of a certain size is more than an inconvenient hurdle because it limits the ability to satisfy the purpose for which I keep firearms. Universal background checks could fall into either camp depending on how implemented.

I live in CA. Here we have the potential for earthquakes, wildfires, and other natural disasters much like other places. There have been times in recent memory where due to whatever circumstances, temporary local civil unrest occurs. The LA riots were a formative event for me. When the police were unable or unwilling to intercede, the people who were able to defend themselves did so against multiple persistent threats at range. Those who could not either lost everything, were tortured and killed, or were lucky to avoid the wrath of the mob. If services are disrupted, like, water, power, gas, roads, police, etc. I’m prepared to ride out whatever temporary thing is causing a problem and that includes repelling threats. Semi-automatic center fire rifles are the best and most effective way to do that. The AR-15 platform fits these requirements quite well. Less experienced firearm users like my wife could achieve a level of effectiveness with an AR-15 platform rifle that would take comparatively longer than with a pistol. Its ease of use and effectiveness are what make the weapon system appealing. I’ve said before that anything that is effective for defense will likely also be effective for offense and this is true here. Of course, at any given time the rifles rest tucked away in the safes, harming no one.

And this is what is meant when people say that the proposals primarily impact law abiding people who will never commit a violent crime. Because that’s most firearm owners. And for the folks that would commit violent crimes, a large portion of those folks wouldn’t abide by the law anyways. So for any control proposal to gain my support and the support of people like me, inconvenience can be tolerable if there is a tradeoff for crime reduction, but thwarting entirely the purpose of firearms is not. That’s why things like raising the age limit to purchase long guns to 21 is tolerable for me (though I think it should be consistent with the age of majority). I don’t particularly care about bump stocks because they aren’t useful for my two purposes. I think suppressors should be legal, but if they’re not it’s not a huge deal to me. Training requirements would be fine with me as well, as long as the success criteria were objective and they were no more difficult than those required of police. But when the proposal is to ban the rifle all together, ban the magazines that contribute to their effectiveness, that’s a hard no.

So again, when gun control proposals are proffered, they typically involve some kind of ban where the purpose of possessing the firearm is thwarted. This isn’t about inconvenience. Inconvenience I could deal with. If there were simply a higher burden, then that would be something that I could work with. But few if any proposals at the legislative level retain my ability to possess these firearms. So as a practical and strategic matter, it is most effective to support organizations like SAF, GOA, and the NRA that take a hard line because a rising tide lifts all ships and the moderates have been crowded out on this issue. Moderate approaches when the opposition pushes extremes is a failure of strategy. That’s the strategic play, but if I were to ignore the larger landscape I would be okay with making it harder to obtain firearms, more rigor on screening, more aggressive pursuit disarming those with certain mental illnesses, treating threats and earlier signs of violence more harshly (remember when bullying was often overlooked but now it’s not?), expanding how and when a person can be considered prohibited, and a more expansive way to disarm those who become prohibited.

I don’t own a firearm, but if I were in the market for a rifle, I’d probably get an AR-15 because the paradox of choice would cause me to regret any other decision I could make. That, and I slung an M-16 for eight years, and I’m already familiar with the weapon.

I don’t mean to make a statement. Just for me, it’s the logical rifle choice.

Very thoughtful post! I’ll respond when I have the time.

Good post, Bone. Well stated. And Col. Cooper’s quote is (no pun intended) dead on target.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. I’m going to push back a bit here even though I appreciate your views.

This sounds like the philosophy of a fifth grader whose view of the world is dominated by watching Star Wars too many times. I don’t care that it’s actually the view of a doddering old military veteran. The good guys don’t always win. People don’t fall into neat categories like “good” and “evil.” They don’t all wear white robes or black capes so you can absolutely tell the difference. Everyone on the moral gamut will do a mix of good and bad over their lives.

I appreciate your being forthright about this. People on both sides of the gun debate wave hunters and collectors around like morally upstanding people who shouldn’t be burdened by gun regulations. You are at least honest that you own a gun so you can kill people. You share that sentiment with the absolutists who believe the 2nd Amendment is intended to empower them to overthrow the government.

Do you bear all the costs of gun ownership? Hint, will you contribute to someone’s injuries if your guns are stolen or misused by others? Are you certain you can pay all the claims if you accidentally or wrongfully shoot someone? Paying from your insurance policy is a “yes” for these purposes, but filing for bankruptcy or claiming “it wasn’t my fault” is a no.

[quote=“Bone, post:1, topic:810269”]

And while I don’t think it’s reasonable to prepare for all possible circumstances, there are two scenarios which I prepare for that involve firearms.
[ol][li]Defense of myself and family when I am at home and out and about.[/ol][/li][/QUOTE]

You carry an AR-15 with you when you go out and about? What kind of hellhole do you live in where that’s necessary?

How do you gauge whether the deterrence and safety benefit you receive from this behavior is outweighed by the greater risk of accidental shooting or the possibility that your gun will be taken from you and misused by someone?

Have you ever lost your temper and done something you regretted? If that has happened at a time when you didn’t have a gun, would the negative outcomes on those occasions been made better or worse if you’d had one?

What do you mean “CCW is the end game”?

[emphasis added]

I care about reducing crime, accidents and suicides, all of which seem to increase with more guns.

We should do a cost/benefit analysis on all gun control proposals. The general question is what are the harms of something like banning larger magazines versus the cost? I tend to value the ability to rapid fire 30 rounds at the range pretty low. I think people in self defense situations rarely need to empty their 30 round magazines so it doesn’t seem like the self defense value of high capacity magazines is all that great. What are the costs? It’s hard to say but perhaps not that high in the grand scheme of things. Gary Kleck did a study on whether high-cap magazine bans would reduce fatalities in mass shootings but the study is really just a bunch of anecdotes strung together by a biased researcher so it’s really hard to draw firm conclusions. We can’t really do controlled studies on this sort of thing by launching a million home invaders into homes and comparing the results with and without 30 round magazines.

Inconvenience is a bad metric to sort out who should have guns from who shouldn’t since it really just allocates guns to people who value their time and convenience the least. I don’t know why we would believe those are the best gun owners.

You also seem to be suggesting that you should be the standard by which all gun controls should be evaluated. I’m paraphrasing, and I hope I’m not too badly mischaracterizing your view, buy you imply that if a gun control measure is not too inconvenient to discourage Bone from having a gun but it stops other people that Bone deems to be bad actors from having guns, it’s okay. If the gun control measure is too inconvenient for Bone, regardless of how many bad actors it dissuades, it’s bad. I don’t think that’s a valid way to do cost benefit on gun control proposals. The best gun control proposal for you could very well be one that reduces your access to firearms (and whatever safety benefits that convey to you) but that also reduces your risk from firearm accidents and violence by others by an amount that more than compensates.

My hunch is, if we did these types of studies to draw these conclusions, we would likely find that the best policy on balance is the one in which every private citizen gives up their guns.

You know that an AR-15 is not effective at repelling earthquakes or dousing wildfires, right?

Right. The AR-15 is for shooting people. And of course, the local civil unrest is only temporary because all the people with white hats and AR-15s will stop it in short order. :rolleyes: Admit it, this is basically a fantasy where you get to play the role of hero.

Please don’t use euphemisms like “repelling threats.” Say what you mean. “I might have to shoot a bunch of people because I’m scared.” You’ve built elaborate fantasies around when you might need to do so. The rest of us can question whether you really need to shoot the people you are planning to shoot.

The system that allows you to have an AR-15 to repel threats is the same system that leads to your “threats” being more lethal because they too can readily get guns. Thus, everyone needs more guns to defend against the threats, ad infinitum. Do you believe that an arms race like this among the American people is good for America?

It seems like you haven’t really overcome the fears triggered by the riots decades ago. Going through life that way seems sad. We all have issues. Sometimes therapy can help.

It’s true. Most firearm owners will never commit a violent crime. But when firearms owners do commit violent crimes, the severity of those crimes seems so much larger. So there’s a cost to giving even law-abiding people firearms. There may be benefits to having guns, like the fun of shooting, deterring violent crime, or even having what amounts to a security blanket to comfort gun owners through life. These benefits partially offset the costs of gun violence but it seems that, on balance, promoting firearms ownership mostly leads to more suicides and more crime. I don’t consider those benefits.

Even law-abiding gun owners sometimes contribute to violent crimes inadvertently. By most accounts I’ve read, the Sandy Hook shooter’s mother gave him access to the gun that he used to kill her, a bunch of elementary school children, and teachers.

In another thread (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=850073), I proposed a comprehensive insurance scheme to ameliorate the injuries caused by gun violence. It imposes a higher burden on gun owners but not arbitrarily. The proposal was designed as best as it could to transfer the burdens of gun violence from gun victims to gun owners. Would you oppose such a system?

I must say that, as a Canadian, the notion that I may legitimately need firearms to gun down crazed mobs after my blood strikes me as more than a little bizarre.

I own a rifle, but not for self-defense - they’d be pretty useless for that purpose against some random attacker, because I keep it locked up. Though I suppose I’d unlock it fast enough if the crazed mob scenario looked likely - though how great a deterrent my .22 would be, I’m not sure. :smiley:

In that scenario, which we all wish would never happen, your .22 in your hands would be much better than a knife, or baseball bat, or a phone in your hand as you’re dilaing 9-1-1.

Possibly, though I don’t regard it as in any way likely to actually happen in reality.

I can picture a disaster that disrupts society temporarily, but I strongly doubt, in such a case, that owning weapons will be a necessity here.

I have several AR-15s. I think they’re a fascinating design, and I’m interested in their history. There’s a Colt SP1 rifle and a Colt SP1 Carbine, a Bushmaster XM-15A2, a heavy-barrel carbine, etc. I have a couple under construction that emulate the early-model M16s…

I haven’t been out to the range in a decade. My collection (not just the AR-15s) is not for self/home defence, nor for ‘defending against tyranny of the Government’ or whatever they call it. They are for looking at and considering their design and history. (And, once upon a time, to have fun shooting with – just to experience the history, as it were.)

Now that I’m older, I need to pare down my many interests. I don’t shoot anymore, and other things have higher priority. I may keep the Colt SP1s and a couple of .22s, but when I have the time I’ll sell off most of the collection.

My read of this was that while he was away from the house his rifle would still be there so his family (wife, adult children, small children?) would have access to it and could use it against the crazed mobs which roam the streets in his area.

The argument for guns here seems to be ‘the populace is prone to rioting at the drop of a hat and all citizens are in imminent danger of having their home invaded by a kale-wielding mob the second the ground shakes or some brush burns. The only way to stop the zombie-like hordes is with a zombie invasion solution: headshots.’ I, personally, am fortunate enough to live in an area where the people don’t mob much, so in my opinion owning a private weapon for “home defense” is one of the stupidest things you can probably do - on a par with taking up crack cocaine. With a similar set of expected outcomes.

I’ve never been a huge fan of the AR platform, but a couple of weeks ago I found one at an attractive price and bought it. mostly because I can see the day coming when I might no longer be able to.

The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”

It’s this sort of nonsense that really annoys me. It conveniently leaves out the part about the ease of access to weapons of war being the root cause of the mass killings in this country. There is zero reason for a citizen to own a semi-automatic or fully automatic long gun, the sole purpose of which is to kill other people. The fantasy of defending yourself against some Armageddon scenario, or that it gives you some sort of advantage in the event of a home invasion, is just fever-dream nonsense.

Chefguy: lifetime owner and user of firearms

Okay, I think Bone has made a credible case that there are some non-zero number of real-world circumstances in which all the characteristics of AR-15 style rifles will add value in terms of self-defense. But I don’t think that’s enough, on its own, to justify insisting that all those characteristics must remain legal. I think there are probably some non-zero number of circumstances in which the characteristics of a full-auto light machine gun, or even a grenade launcher, or other heavy weaponry, would add value in a civil unrest scenario. That sometime, someday, you might be just a smidgen better off with an AR-15, or a mounted machine gun, etc., than a 9mm Beretta, or pump shotgun, or long-barrelled semi-auto deer rifle, seems trivial, if those scenarios are close to 1 in a million, as I think they are. In another LA riots scenario, if you’re stocked with semi-auto handguns, hunting rifles, and shotguns, and if you and your family are trained with them, then what are the chances that you’re going to get killed or robbed by a force that can overcome that, but wouldn’t overcome a pair of AR-15 carbines? Does that teeny-tiny possibility of benefit justify making legal (and more than legal – ubiquitous) what appears to me to be the perfect weapon to maximize body counts for mass shootings in schools?

It’s like this, for me. I’ll concede AR-15s add some non-zero value X, in terms of self-defense capability, if we average every possible scenario together. Hopefully Bone would concede that AR-15s add non-zero value Y in terms of mass-shooting effectiveness (i.e. body count). I hold that Y is not just larger than X, but many orders of magnitude larger. I think it’s reasonable to believe that shootings like the Parkland or Sandy Hook events would have had significantly smaller body counts if the shooter had been forced to rely on semi-auto handguns (or revolvers), long-barrelled hunting rifles, and shotguns, due to less accuracy (for all but the hunting rifles), less deadly wounds (for all but the hunting rifles), less maneuverability/ease of aiming (for all but maybe a shotgun), and more frequent reloading (for all of them). I’m not a gun expert by any means, but I served in the military and qualified on a pistols (I earned a marksmanship ribbon for the 9mm, actually), M-16/equivalent, and 12 gauge pump shotgun. And I hold that the reduced body count from less effective mass shootings would be significantly larger than the lives saved from those incredibly few scenarios in which AR-15 characteristics would be the difference between life and death. This would be almost impossible (or entirely impossible, perhaps) to prove either way, and thus I’m just trying to lay out the logic that leads me to this conclusion.

I understand that even banning AR-15 characteristics wouldn’t eliminate the hundreds of thousands (or more?) of these rifles already in the US. But the possibility that a minuscule number of scenarios would require AR-15s over other weapons to stay alive might exist doesn’t strike me as a good enough reason that they must remain legal, and not do as much as possible to minimize the chances that they be used for future mass shootings.

Just to pick up that point: The sort of natural disaster the OP refers to does indeed occur in California, pretty often too - and has never resulted in the collapse of civilization, or even the loss of discipline and effectiveness of the trained and dedicated first response force. Never. Planning for it to happen most certainly is a fantasy, as you note, and cannot be counted as a need or even a benefit.

Props for honesty and articulation, though - the OP does beat the cold, dead fingers / molon labe / overthrow tyranny stuff we normally get treated to, but it’s still rationalizations rather than reasons.

There may be more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns, but gunfights are usually won by whoever shoots first, and in civilian situations, that’s usually the bad guys. Therefore, the best way to win a fight is to prevent the bad guys from being able to shoot in the first place, among other ways, by taking away their guns.

And this kind of quoted nonsense annoys me too. You can’t find a greater access to weapons of war in this country, than you could in the immediate post war period for either WW1 and WW2. Pre Lee Harvey and his idiocy in Dallas, you could order whatever you wanted mail order, including surplus semi-automatic weapons of war like the Garand and M-1 Carbine (more on that rifle in a sec), have them shipped to you, along with ammunition, no questions asked.

You could walk into sporting goods stores and see M-1 carbines sitting in barrels for sale. No NICS check, no id needed, no mother-may-I card from the state. Cash on the counter and you could walk off with a 15-shot (with 30-round magazines available), intermediate-power cartridge firing rifle. With as many magazines and boxes of shells as you wanted. The M-1 carbine is as easy to use as a rifle gets and it’s qualitatively nearly identical to all of those AR-15s most of you here want to ban. Just ask Patty Hearst. Or Laurens County Sheriff’s Deputy Kyle Dinkheller. It doesn’t have a pistol grip though (although Patty’s did) and it usually had a wooden stock, so maybe it wasn’t as scary?

But with all of those guns available—the US made 6 million of the things, and a good chunk made it back to the States—we didn’t have people constantly taking those easily available weapons and shooting up schools. Why? When you could buy a Thompson submachine gun in a store, pre NFA, though mobsters happily used them on each other, you don’t see in that list of school shootings, anyone deciding to go use one on the nearest elementary school. Why?

It’s not the availability of guns, even guns like the AR. We had more of them, way back when, and people weren’t doing this sort of thing. Something else is inducing sick, crazy people to want to go and shoot a bunch of defenseless people. And if you ban the AR, crazies are just going to use handguns, like Cho, the shooter in Roseburg Oregon, and most of the people on that cited list, and kill just as many people.

You want to stop things like this from happening? Bring back the asylums. As stupidly expensive as that’s going to be. Go back to a looser standard for involuntary commitment, and accept that there will be abuses, and it will be over-inclusive. Lock up those who have a history of unlawfully using violence against other people, and don’t willfully ignore their history of violence when doing so makes your school statistics look better. Let people be armed if they choose to be, and punish them if they screw up. That’s it.

Banning a type of rifle isn’t going to do a damned thing other than punish the law-abiding.

Again, from a non-US perspective this just seems weird.

Canada has just as many crazy people per capita as the US. We also have guns (I own one myself, a rifle). Our cultures aren’t all that different, really. A person from Ontario simply isn’t very different from one across the border in NY. We even watch the same TV shows …

Yet the murder rate here is much lower and we don’t appear to have mass school shootings as often (they do occur - there was an infamous one at L’Ecole Polytechnique, Montreal, that still attracts mourning - but that was in 1989 … ).

It is very difficult to avoid the conclusion that the main difference is Canada’s relatively more strict gun control legislation.

“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”

Interestingly enough, this is exactly why I think I should be able to own my own nuclear weapon.

And thus, because there was flour before there was cake, flour has been proven not to be necessary to make a cake, and removing flour would not in any way impede the baking of cake.

I like how you just shrug about the fact that it would be over-inclusive and there would be abuses. It’s pretty charming.

I agree - we should ban LOTS ot types of rifles, to increase the corrective effect.

I bolded the bold part above. The guns and/or ease of access is **NOT **the root cause of mass killings. Guns can be used as tools in mass killings, just as some use bombs, cars, knifes and other objects. But the guns do not cause the violence. It seems utterly apparent that the root cause is mental illness, sociopathy, revenge or some other similar aberrant mindset.