Tell us more about paying attention. If you, as a Bad Guy, know there are people with guns in that crowd, you’ll try crowds that don’t show them, and will take a little time in getting them. Or not try crowds at all.
Try reading any pro-gun posts in any gun thread. Like this one, for instance. That’s the *only *kind of scenario that gets brought up as an excuse for carrying, other than the militia fantasies. And they just don’t really happen off-screen, do they? Pay attention, as a wise person once wrote.
Absolutely not. You offered an unveiled insult of open-carriers, who to you are “assholes” and not regular, sensible folks like concealed carriers. I suggested a good reason they carry openly, and your response was, shall we say, contrary to the spirit of constructive discourse. If you can’t defend a position but feel the need for that instead, then maybe you need to reconsider. Your claim to “live in Afghanistan”, whatever that means, does, in fact, reflect living in fear, and you might start there.
His sincerity is not in question. It’s being identified as part of the problem.
I’ve seen youtube ads for that sort of concealed carry. That’s not what I was thinking of when it came to small of the back or shoulder. I was thinking more of an inner thigh holster than that when you were talking about one of them though.
And yeah, that’s kinda concealed. But if I am paying attention, I can see the outline. Now, that does involves staring at a someone’s crotch, so maybe that is part of the concealment, put it where people don’t dare look.
I personally criticized that one, as it did not appear as though the shooter was as concerned about what may be around or behind his target as I would prefer.
Do you think you would be able to use your gun defensively if you start the encounter with them pointing their gun at you?
And to be honest, my experiences with “fast draw” has been entirely with airsoft pistols. I have been more relaying the perspectives of those who defend open carry.
I don’t get that perspective. I don’t do things like that on autopilot. Even though I actually wear exactly the same thing every day, I am aware of my conscious choice to do so. I always think about my seatbelt when I put it on. It’s not really a decision, but it does go through my mind the potential consequences of not wearing it, reaffirming that action.
If I were to put on a gun, I would be thinking about why that is. Every time. It actually kinda scares me a bit that you say that there are people who just strap on their gun on complete autopilot, without actually thinking about the consequences of doing so vs not doing so.
It means I live in Afghanistan. … for fucks sake, man. What is wrong with you. You can’t handle a simple statement of fact without trying to interpret it in your own twisted way?
Yes. But that doesn’t mean I think I can draw faster than they can pull the trigger. It’s more complicated and dynamic than that. There’s no one single way that gauruntees survival in any incident, and frankly, not every situation is survivable to begin with. And sometimes the best course of action is to just be a compliant victim. It just depends, and I have no delusions about being able to shoot my way out of any possible scenario. The brain is the best weapon and all that…
It comes from interaction with a sample of the population being discussed. Sure there is a subset of people with the mentality and fetishism and assholery mentioned in this thread. But there is also a large percentage of people who just choose to carry a firearm without going through an intense, deliberate decision making process each time. These people don’t plan on needing a firearm on a particular day. They just realize that one never knows when they will need it. Hell, I might wear the same pair of jeans all week. The gun just stays in the IWB holster attached to the belt. I put as much thought into “concealing a firearm” as I do putting pants on.
That’s interesting. I never think Im going to get in an accident or consider the consequences of not wearing it. But I buckle it every single time out of habit. Simply habit, and Id feel…naked? not wearing it. I thought that was a good analogy because its similar to the way I never think Im actually going to need a firearm. I feel similarly naked if Ive left home without my watch (sometimes I take it off to type and forget to put it back on) and feel the same way without a firearm. I’d say that stating people carry firearms because they live in fear is like saying that people who wear seat belts do so out of constant fear. We do seem to have very different perspectives on everday activities which certainly explains the different perspective on carrying a firearm.
And that is my strategy for the case when I have a gun to my head, or are otherwise “outgunned” as it were, including if they just are bigger than me and can beat my ass. Be a compliant, but vigilante, victim. I will hand over my money or whatever it is. If I happen to get a bad feeling about the encounter, then I may take some chances to get the upper hand if I think that they will leave me in a worse state than just being deprived of my money.
I’ve worked 3rd shift in convenience stores in areas that were not so great. Never got robbed, but that was always a possibility. Some of my co-workers would bring a gun, and put it under the counter, in violation of policy.
I had no intention of killing someone for a couple hundred dollars of someone else’s money, and certainly no desire to die over it either.
One of the consequences of not wearing a seatbelt is that in a sudden turn, or minor collision, you can leave your seat and lose control over the car, making what could be a minor incident into a major accident. This passes through my head every time I hear “click.” It is not a fear, it is a vigilance, it is taking active steps to improve the safety of myself and those around me. I don’t think that most CCWer’s do it out of “fear”, as in terror, but I do think that they do it out of having a heightened sense of danger to which they need to be vigilante. In MHO, I don’t think that heightened sense of danger is justified in most cases.
I am very conscious of my safety, and the safety of anyone or anything trusted to my care. I also refuse to take my car out of park until all passengers are belted in. I’ve even looked into 5 point harnesses, and if they were a nominal cost for the modificacion, I’d probably have one for at least the driver’s seat.
I actually re-evaluate my stance on guns as personal defense on a regular basis. I had a time when I was thinking I was going to lose my house, and move into a much worse neighborhood. If things had played out that way, I would have increased my prioritization about owning a firearm. Don’t know if it would have pushed me over the edge on that risk assessment, but maybe. It should also be noted that at that time, I was also rather depressed. I didn’t have any real job prospects, and as I said, I was thinking I was going to lose my house. Having a gun at that time may have made it easy and convenient enough for me to solve all my problems that way. My life has gotten a whole lot better since then, and I would have missed out on all of that. But, that is part of the risk assessment that I have to consider. If I have this extremely effective means of suicide, might there be a day that I just really don’t want to get up?
Look at the damn location in his Location field: it says Nangarhar Province. That’s a province to the east of Kabul. Bear_Nenno is in the US military, and he has been, if my memory serves me correctly, on more than one deployment in Afghanistan.
I don’t own or carry a gun, and have no desire to do so. I have used guns in my life, but only rifles and shotguns; never handguns. But even i think i would have a chance at using a gun defensively in such a situation. I’d prefer not to have to do it, but i reckon it might work under certain circumstances.
Go online and watch police videos where there are exchanges of gunfire between cops and criminals. This YouTube playlist has a bunch of them, interspersed with regular police dashcam videos. The first thing you learn after watching a bunch of these is how few bullets seem to hit their targets in a typical exchange of gunfire, even when the people doing the firing are trained police officers. If you have a gun, and can aim it at your aggressor, you might put him off sufficiently that he can’t get a clean shot at you.
I’m not saying i want to carry a gun. Nor am i saying that, if i did carry a gun, i would use one in all situations where someone else was pointing a gun at me. If, for example, a robber had his gun pointed at me, and i thought that handing over my wallet would end the encounter and cause him to leave me alone, then i’d definitely just hand over my wallet. But if i thought the person was intending to do me harm, it might be worth trying to pull my gun, even if i was at something of a disadvantage.
If this is true, then you are literally a unique human being. To be frank, i really don’t buy your claim here.
Me too. But that’s because it would be an unusual event. If i put one on every day for five years, i can understand how my perspective might change, and how putting on a gun might occasion no more thought than feeding my belt through the loops in my jeans, or tying up my shoelaces.
I’m not arguing in favor of carrying, whether open or concealed. I basically think it’s a silly thing to do, and i support the idea of much tighter gun regulation. But let’s at least be reasonable about how the human mind works, and about its ability to normalize things that might, to some, seem unusual or abnormal.
All right then, assuming that’s literally true and not a metaphor, you certainly do have reason to be living in constant fear.
But most of us don’t live in combat zones. Attitudes and probabilities of incidents and natures of incidents are a bit different here in the civilian (although not entirely civil) world. The laws governing the topic of discussion in this thread are not military rules of engagement but those of a democratic republic.
We even agree on something, that open-carriers are assholes. How about that? Can we work from there?
Then tell us what *you *feel if you don’t have your seatbelt on, and why. If it makes you feel funny, there’s a reason for that, and there should be. “Feeling naked” is not quite it.
Being safety-conscious and not just a creature of reflex is what you’re damned well *supposed *to do. Have you never received safety training in any milieu, or even seen any of the movies in Driver Ed class? Being aware of what you’re doing and why is normal and prudent, not unique.
Complacency kills. Have you heard that or something like that before, in any context? You can’t *let *a risky behavior become natural-seeming.
Yes, let’s. We can start with normalizing the carrying a tool of death.
Ranges can be different. If someone is close enough proximity to ask you for your wallet, they are close enough range to have decent accuracy. OTOH, you have to remember that lack of accuracy goes both ways. You could miss too. And while the criminal might not care what he hits behind your left shoulder, you should care what you hit behind his.
I agree, if I had a gun. But putting a gun on in the morning in anticipation of this possibility is not worth it, to me. I do have fists, and a brain with which to distract or dissuade. I performed a magic show when I was 8, so I might have some slight of hand tricks left over. On balance, I’d rather rely on that in the very unlikely chance this situation comes up, than carry a gun around with me every day.
I have been told that I am rather unique before, but I don’t think it is that odd to take safety seriously. I’d say, from what I have seen about commercial pilots and their redundant checks and cross checks, they probably think about their car seatbelts as well.
But then I believe that all of us are unique.
And that right there is my concern. That people aren’t even thinking about what it is they are doing when they make decisions about their own and those around them’s safety.
This is a disingenuous argument, in the context of the debate.
The fact that someone might not think about the physical actions of picking up and holstering a gun when they get dressed in the morning does not mean that they haven’t thought long and hard about the decision to carry a gun on a regular basis in the first place, and nor does it mean that they won’t take seriously the decision of when and how to actually use the gun if the occasion arises.
Yup. And for so many scenarios, that’s the way to successfully get through it! Despite what some might think, having a gun doesn’t mean it’s going to get you out of every dangerous or deadly encounter. I have no delusions about that fact. It shouldn’t be viewed as the solution to any encounter. It’s merely one additional tool that a person could use, in a particular situation. And even then, it often wouldn’t be the only available option.
Just to be clear, I do realize what you were saying, and I wasn’t trying to imply that you are driving in fear. I was trying to come up with an analogy and try to tie those two common statements together, is all. I think my paragraph may have implied that you were one of the people driving scared because you always think about your seat belt. Before your statement, I really didn’t think anyone put much thought into it. Like turning off a light when you leave the room. One just does it. It’s not a deliberate thought about saving energy… it’s just habit. But, obviously, some people have vastly different perspective. I can accept that.
I lived in Europe for a couple years, so wasn’t able to carry anywhere. It was never an issue. I never left the house feeling scared or anything. Having a gun isn’t the only way to win a gun fight after all. I had a few occasions, like anyone, where I felt a particular dark street wasn’t the best place to be walking, etc. But nothing I’d say made me fearful to the point where I thought, “man, if only I had a gun”. I’ll be moving back to Germany in a few months. All my guns have to stay locked up in a safe and put into storage. I’m more concerned about the safety of my guns in long term storage than I am of my safety without them. It’s just not a big deal. To me, at least.
Yikes. I am glad you made it through that! Since you were in that situation, can you expand on how you viewed a firearm as an easier method than others? I understand if it’s not something you’d want to talk more about. But I would like to hear your perspective on it. With other, seemingly more peaceful, and more readily available methods, why did you view a firearm as the way to go?
Exactly. You put it on without thinking about it, precisely because it has become a routine and mechanical action. Paradoxically, the only time i really think about seat belt safety is when i don’t have one on. I was riding in a taxi some time ago where the rear seat belt could not be fastened. While i understood that an accident on my short trip was statistically extremely unlikely, i was very conscious of not being strapped in. Almost felt naked.
I’m not sure he’s saying that. It seems to me that he’s saying that, if he had hit rock bottom, then having a gun would have made it easier and more convenient to actually follow through on the suicidal thoughts.
This makes sense. Killing yourself with a gun is, in terms of the number of steps and the time involved, far easier than most of the alternatives. At least, this is true if you already own a gun and have access to it. This is actually one of the key arguments in favor of gun control by some members of the mental health professions: because suicides significantly outnumber homicides in the US when it comes to gun use, they argue that tighter restrictions could prevent many of those suicides.
But that’s just it. I don’t live in constant fear. Even when I might have a reason to. And no situation back in the states has ever come close to the situations over here. This was my point when saying that I’m not carrying a firearm in the states because I’m in fear. I’ve been in plenty of firefights or the receiving end of IDF, so I think I have a pretty healthy grasp of my emotions and control of fear. So your statement that I am carrying a concealed firearm in the states out of fear was just insulting to me. It’s just simply a normal thing to do for me and my circle of acquaintances. I don’t leave the house thinking I might need to shoot someone or that I might get robbed. I just put on my clothes, and a gun happens to be part of that. That one time it’s needed will probably be that one time it isn’t carried. That’s the train of thought. It is never, “This time I am going to need it.” I doubt I’ll ever need it. I’m still going to carry it, though.
I only bring up the combat zone to give weight to my statement that I’m not scared walking around town in the states. And that my decision to carry a firearm is not based on the fear of being robbed or assaulted. Fear plays no part of it.
My statements in this thread are referring to civilian life. I great up in Florida, which is where I hold a CCW. It’s valid in about 30 other states as well. I’ve lived in Georgia and North Carolina. With varying degrees of freedom, I can and did carry in both of those states. Presently, my home is in Alaska. I carry concealed off base unless I am out in the woods or fishing, where I carry openly because I am carrying a large caliber, bear defense gun, and it is much more comfortable that way. While open carry is legal in Alaska, I don’t do it in town, certainly not in Anchorage. And Anchorage, if you’re not aware, is a surprisingly high crime area. Most people I’ve seen who openly carry just look like assholes to me. That’s probably not a fair prejudgment to make, and it might be hypocritical of me. But I’m going to paint with a broad brush here. In the majority of cases though, I just look at them like, “…this fuckin gun :rolleyes:” And in every case, I’m definitely judging them based on the particular brand, caliber, etc. they’re carrying. And their choice of holster… Who knows, maybe it’s their shitty combination of choices that makes me think they’re an asshole more than the fact that they’re carrying openly. I mean, if knew the person next to me was concealing a shitty .380 HiPoint or Jennings, I’d have the same low opinion of him too.
But really, I just don’t agree with this subset of people who try to make a huge deal about carrying a firearm. And those types of people often carry openly. And they carry openly specifically for the sake of carrying, and making everyone see it. They’re not necessarily carrying for self-defense, or fear, or anything like that. They’re carrying because they simply want everyone to see that they have a gun. Worse are the people carrying AR-15s into Wal-Mart, simply so that people can freak out and so that they can get it on film. Or carry it down the street trying to get a cop to stop them so they can complain about their rights being violated… Yup, they’re assholes.
Certainly. There’s exceptions, of course. But generally speaking, yes.
Bear, you could not have echoed my own thoughts more precisely. The people who open-carry are virtue-signalling. Yes, conservatives can do it too. It’s a form of exhibitionism. The only exception would be someone who’s an outdoorsman or cowboy of some kind, in the West, where the weapon is just a tool of the trade.
That’s actually why I was curious to ask him about the suicide thing and why a gun would have possibly made it happen, versus the other (seemingly to me) more peaceful and readily available methods. When I hear those suicide-related gun control arguments, they’re usually followed up with something like, “in country X, this particular gun-control law resulted in an 80% reduction in gun suicides”, without discussing the more important issue of total suicides. Since there are claims that less guns might result in fewer suicides, not just fewer gun suicides, I am curious to understand why that might be true. You’ve touched on some good points about number of steps and ease of use. But easier than pills? I’d be interested in hearing as much as k9befriender is willing to share on that subject.
Yes. Funny that those were specifically the exceptions I was thinking of.
For the rest of them, I just think that people in a civilized society should make reasonable compromises to ensure they’re freedoms and their actions do not interfere with other people’s rights to happiness and inner-peace. Concealed carry, to me, is a perfect compromise. People don’t need to open carry for safety (that was the point I was trying to touch on up thread. Drawing from a concealed holster can be done quick enough. So if there are people who feel uncomfortable or threatened by openly displayed guns everywhere, why do it? Just keep it concealed. I am in complete agreement with Florida on this one.
Yelling obscenities in a park might be legal, but you’re still an asshole if you’re screaming vulgarities in the park simply to “exercise your 1st Amendment rights”.