# Why I Support the Death Penalty for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253 "2015-04-22T03:22:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/181 "2015-05-20T19:57:05Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Then you would be violating the judge’s instructions because possible and beyond reasonable aren’t equivalent. I don’t want to put words in Elvis’ mouth and will apologize if I’m wrong, but I think what he’s saying is that in his opinion if there is the “possible doubt” then there is “reasonable doubt”. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/182 "2015-05-20T20:06:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, that’s not true. Fetal brain activity is clearly formed around weeks 24-26, which is not “well into the third trimester.” This probably forms the basis for another thread, but here are my citations. 2nd trimester ends at 27 weeks: [Fetal development: The 2nd trimester - Mayo Clinic](http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/pregnancy-week-by-week/in-depth/fetal-development/art-20046151?pg=2) Brain waves “…with regular patterns typical of adult human brains,” occur during about the 30th week of pregnancy. That’s from a book by Carl Sagen (Billions and Billions). Larger quote: [INDENT][INDENT]By placing harmless electrodes on a subject’s head, scientists can measure the electrical activity produced by the network of neurons inside the skull. Different kinds of mental activity show different kinds of brain waves. But brain waves with regular patterns typical of adult human brains do not appear in the fetus until about the 30th week of pregnancy–near the beginning of the third trimester. Fetuses younger than this–however alive and active they may be–lack the necessary brain architecture. They cannot yet think. [/INDENT][/INDENT] I did not recall the qualification, “Typical of adult human brains”, when I made the above claim: correction noted and appreciated. Cite: [Science and abortion](http://www.2think.org/science_abortion.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/183 "2015-05-20T20:08:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t want to put words in Elvis’ mouth and will apologize if I’m wrong, but I think what he’s saying is that in his opinion if there is the “possible doubt” then there is “reasonable doubt”. Nope. Doubt can be unreasonable but still possible. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/184 "2015-05-20T20:36:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nope. Doubt can be unreasonable but still possible. Ok, what would be your definition of “unreasonable but still possible”? For example, Steophan has insisted that the jury in the case of Michael Dunn, the man who killed Jordan Davis made the wrong decision and that Dunn was innocent because it’s possible that the witnesses who saw the shooting could have lied and then hidden the shotgun that Dunn claims Davis threatened him with. Do you think Steophan is right and that the jury should have acquitted Dunn? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting\_of\_Jordan\_Davis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Jordan_Davis) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/185 "2015-05-20T20:50:12Z")
OK, since you’re genuinely having trouble here. It’s _possible_ that aliens did it all and then hypnotized us into blaming one of our own. It’s not _reasonable_, though. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/186 "2015-05-20T20:50:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, what would be your definition of “unreasonable but still possible”? It is possible that John Wayne Gacy did not murder any of those boys but, instead, is the victim of an incredibly elaborate frame job in which a man who looked just like him committed the murders and, with the cooperation of police, planted the bodies on Gacy’s property, as the real killer had the goods on the local authorities and so was able to blackmail them into using Gacy as a patsy. Obviously this is not a reasonable basis for doubt, but it is technically possible. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/187 "2015-05-20T22:37:47Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Then you would not be following instructions and if your position was found before the trail you would quite rightly be excluded from the jury. The standard is reasonable. > > Were you to apply a standard of any POSSIBLE doubt no one would ever be convicted of a crime, because there is always some ludicrous but possible scenario of innocence you could come up with. So why do we need juries? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/188 "2015-05-20T23:14:23Z")
To determine reasonability. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/189 "2015-05-20T23:18:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > OK, since you’re genuinely having trouble here. It’s _possible_ that aliens did it all and then hypnotized us into blaming one of our own. It’s not _reasonable_, though. So then, to take you at your word, you would refuse to convict anyone of any crime since it’s always possible that aliens did it and hypnotized us into believing it, correct? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/190 "2015-05-21T00:19:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > To determine reasonability. We kill people because it is reasonable? Jesus, Mary and Joe Cocker. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/191 "2015-05-21T12:33:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then, to take you at your word, you would refuse to convict anyone of any crime since it’s always possible that aliens did it and hypnotized us into believing it, correct? Where do you get this crap? The standard for guilt is “beyond a reasonable doubt”, not “beyond all possible doubt”. What is so difficult here? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/192 "2015-05-21T12:36:49Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > We kill people because it is reasonable? > Jesus, Mary and Joe Cocker. > :rolleyes: We convict people when we find that it is beyond a reasonable doubt that they’re guilty of the crimes with which they are charged. We sometimes, _still_, kill them because those of us selected to be jurors, after screening out those who, like us, oppose killing _anyone_, find that they and their crimes merit it. Barbaric but simple. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/193 "2015-05-21T13:01:41Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Hey, feel free to support the death penalty. Just don’t pretend you represent some sort of overwhelming consensus. You do not. I suppose it depends on your definition of “overwhelming”, but there clearly is a [consensus](http://www.gallup.com/poll/1606/death-penalty.aspx) in favor of the death penalty. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/194 "2015-05-21T13:05:11Z")
Majority, yes. Not consensus. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/195 "2015-05-21T13:08:44Z")
Still waiting to see you come up with an explanation of why we should acquit based on unreasonable doubt. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/196 "2015-05-21T13:13:42Z")
Right after your explanation of why you think that’s what I said. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/197 "2015-05-21T13:15:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Barbaric but simple. I am not concerned with the morality, but for the possibility, however unreasonable, of error. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/198 "2015-05-21T13:19:59Z")
That’s one of the reasons I came around to opposing it outright - the Illinois study some years back that showed how erratic, unreliable, racially-skewed, and random it was. I wish we’d seen more effort towards improving the, well \*accuracy \*for lack of a better word of the judicial system than we’ve had. My other reason is that it debases \*us \*to do it. If we choose to kill, then we choose to be killers. I used to be able to rationalize that away, but I no longer try. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/199 "2015-05-21T13:36:03Z")
I am also offended by the arrogance of the legal profession with it’s definitions such as “reasonable doubt”. One must have definitions, but that one seems to be to be worded so as to switch the blame from any of that profession making a mistake. It is the fault of the jury, not of prosecutors and Judges if an innocent person is found to be guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253/200 "2015-05-21T13:40:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Right after your explanation of why you think that’s what I said. :rolleyes: Do you believe that someone should be convicted and punished (in a non-capital case) where there is no reasonable doubt as to their guilt? If so, good - then this nonsense about “possible” doubt is just a strawman. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-i-support-the-death-penalty-for-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/718253.md?page=11)