# Why in simple terms are gun laws so varied across the USA? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 13, 2012, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992 "2012-06-13T07:28:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/1 "2012-06-13T07:28:42Z")
The second amendment of the US constitution is well known, yet gun laws are incredibly varied state by state. In fact some states and even cities like NYC and DC have policies that come very close to is not practically banning firearms, sometimes they use red tape so that they can say it is technically possible. There have even been supreme court cases on this, but it never seems to change anything in reality. Is there a simple answer to why this is, in legal thinking? For an example the first amendment, we don’t say \*note these topics are banned from free speech in Arizona, Alaska, and North Dakota. \*note religious freedom is not present in California and Georgia. But for the second amendment that is pretty much the case, and has been that way for decades without it being an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/2 "2012-06-13T12:16:20Z")
It’s possible to make laws that are Constitutionally valid but that vary quite a bit. It is permissible to regulate gun ownership, and that’s what the various states have done. Do you believe that some of the current set of laws don’t pass constitutional muster? If so, which ones? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/3 "2012-06-13T12:56:35Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > It’s possible to make laws that are Constitutionally valid but that vary quite a bit. It is permissible to regulate gun ownership, and that’s what the various states have done. Do you believe that some of the current set of laws don’t pass constitutional muster? If so, which ones? I contend that DC’s laws, _in toto_, do not pass constitutional muster. Emily Miller did a series of columns for a local paper about what she had to go through to buy and legally possess a gun as a DC resident. Her experience are well worth [reading in full from the beginning](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/5/miller-emily-gets-her-gun/), but this excerpt from her testimony to the DC City Council captures the problem: > [@](#): > > As of now, I’m in the 10-day waiting period to see if my registration application is approved for a handgun. Or as I’ve tracked it, I’ve completed 14 of the 17 steps the city requires to register a gun. For me, the safety class has been the biggest barrier to gun ownership - in time, expense and my personal safety. > > It took me a long while to find an instructor for the course - it seemed the District was making it as difficult as possible. As you know, the police give out the list of certified instructors with only their names and phone numbers. > > I called every single one of the 47 people on that list. And only found four instructors willing and able to teach the class. The prices were mostly in the range of $200 to $250. > > It doesn’t say it in the registration packet, but from making all these calls, I quickly learned that the instructors are not allowed to teach the course within the District city limits. > > I just don’t understand how it can be constitutional that I have to go outside Washington in order to exercise my Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms in D.C. > > All of the instructors are in Maryland and Virginia and teach the class out of the their homes - or more specifically, as one man said, in his basement. They all live from 30 minutes to an hour drive each way. None were near a Metro stop. I don’t know what a D.C. resident who doesn’t have a car would do to take the mandatory class. > > Above all that, the biggest problem is being a woman and trying to find a way to feel safe while taking a class at a strange man’s house. Since the list only gives the instructors’ phone numbers - but no important details such as address, website or business affiliation- they are almost impossible to investigate. > > I don’t believe it it right that the DC police require me to go to an armed stranger’s house - in another state - for any reason. I already don’t feel safe. That’s why I wanted a gun in the first place and still do. > > Another huge hurdle in the gun registration process is buying the gun. Nowhere in the 22-page packet does it say that Charles Sykes is the only gun dealer in DC. And since it is mandatory to use his services - because we aren’t allowed to pick up guns ourselves from stores in neighboring states - I think you should tell people in the instructions that they will have to pay his $125 transfer fee. > > Which brings me to the astronomical cost of registering a gun in DC. On top of Sykes’s fees, I paid $225 for the class. $35 for range fees and ammunition. The passport photos cost $20. Then I paid the city $35 for fingerprints, $13 for gun registration and $12 for a ballistics test. > > So I have spent a total of $465 in fees. And that doesn’t include the cost of the gun! > > I had no idea registering a gun would be this expensive. I think the registration packet should state these costs up front. This is a lot of money for me, and I have a good job. So I don’t know how a lower-income DC resident could afford almost $500 in fees to have a legal gun. > > Mr. Chairman, I was pleased to see your bill would have the police take photos instead of our having to buy passport photos. And you would eliminate the ballistics test. Those things would save us $32 in fees, but it helps more in saving time. > > And that’s the other and final huge hurdle I want to mention today. It takes way too much time to get a gun legally in D.C. From taking the written test, the five-hour class, waiting in line at the DMV to pay the fees, getting fingerprinted, meeting with Sykes to transfer the gun and on and on. > > No one can register a gun in DC without taking at least two or three days off work. And as you know, the registry office is closed on weekends. This is not some unusual case. Ms. Miller did not have to go through this because her criminal record was lost in the Great Fire of '06. This is the requirement imposed upon every single person who wishes to purchase and possess a legal handgun in the District of Columbia. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/4 "2012-06-13T13:05:10Z")
Enter the tyranny of the majority. Just as education laws, abortion rights, healthcare, marriage, and a host of other things are regulated from state to state…‘States rights’ can get ironic. eta: [DC also has a high murder-by-firearm rate](http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state). > [@](#): > > • While gun crime is down in the vast majority of states, it is up in New York, Virginia, New Jersey, Mississippi, Missouri, Arizona, Delaware, New Hampshire > Massachusetts, North Dakota, Connecticut and several of the smaller states > • If you look at the firearms murder rate per 100,000 people, District of Columbia comes out top - with 16 firearms murders per 100,000 man, woman and child in the state. There were 99 firearms murders in DC in 2010, down 12% on 2009 > • DC is followed by Louisiana (7.75) and Missouri (5.34) > • DC is also top for firearms robberies per 100,000 people - with 255.98 > • If you look at aggravated assaults involving a firearm, Tennessee (129.87) and South Carolina (114.73) come above District of Columbia (99.25) ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/5 "2012-06-13T13:06:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Why in simple terms are gun laws so varied across the USA? Because they were made by different people. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/6 "2012-06-13T13:33:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Emily Miller did a series of columns for a local paper about what she had to go through to buy and legally possess a gun as a DC resident. Her experience are well worth [reading in full from the beginning](http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/5/miller-emily-gets-her-gun/), but this excerpt from her testimony to the DC City Council captures the problem: But let’s get serious here: listening to Ms. Miller on the travails of registering a firearm in DC is like listening to a 13 year old boy about how hard it is to mow the lawn. Miller, like a pain in the ass teenager, clearly approached the whole experience with a foot-dragging, huffy, non-constructive attitude, with the predetermined conclusion that _everything_ she was asked to do was, like, just _sooooooo_ unfair. For example, the comment you quoted: “I don’t believe it it right that the DC police require me to go to an armed stranger’s house - in another state - for any reason. I already don’t feel safe. That’s why I wanted a gun in the first place and still do.” This is a grossly misleading statement on several levels, and really should not be read in any other context than totally unreasonable whinging, pure and simple. ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/7 "2012-06-13T14:09:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But let’s get serious here: listening to Ms. Miller on the travails of registering a firearm in DC is like listening to a 13 year old boy about how hard it is to mow the lawn. Miller, like a pain in the ass teenager, clearly approached the whole experience with a foot-dragging, huffy, non-constructive attitude, with the predetermined conclusion that _everything_ she was asked to do was, like, just _sooooooo_ unfair. > > For example, the comment you quoted: “I don’t believe it it right that the DC police require me to go to an armed stranger’s house - in another state - for any reason. I already don’t feel safe. That’s why I wanted a gun in the first place and still do.” This is a grossly misleading statement on several levels, and really should not be read in any other context than totally unreasonable whinging, pure and simple. Right. And based on her article, it appears that registering her SECOND gun would cost about $25. Seems like a bargain to me. Whenever I hear someone from D.C. complain about something like this, or about the whole “taxation without representation” thing, my answer is something along the lines of “yeah, that’s why I live in a STATE.” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/8 "2012-06-13T14:35:18Z")
I’m a liberal who knows how to shoot, and enjoys it. I’m all for “sensible” gun laws. But while I understand being frustrated with the myriad state laws, as a pilot I snicker at people complaining about the complexity of regulation and hoops you have to jump through to get a gun. My solution: make it federal. If getting a gun were like getting a pilot’s license, there would be one set of rules. None of this nonsense about different laws in different states. You could take your gun anywhere. The tradeoff? There would be serious education and testing involved, perhaps on several levels. Getting your first gun would be like getting a private pilot’s license. It would take x number of hours. I won’t belabor the comparison by setting an actual number because I don’t know what would be appropriate. But I think it should be comprehensive - not something you could do in a day. Becoming certified for concealed carry would be like getting your instrument rating. It’s another course, and another test at a much higher standard. Never mind that this has nothing to do with the Constitution. I just think it has possibilities for standardization of rules, and more importantly setting a high standard for gun education and safety. Getting a private pilot’s license required a minimum of 40 hours of training, a knowledge test and a practical test. It’s serious, and I think getting a gun should be similarly serious. Once the license is in hand, it comes with privileges - most of which don’t exist in today’s world of gun laws. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/9 "2012-06-13T14:45:38Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But let’s get serious here: listening to Ms. Miller on the travails of registering a firearm in DC is like listening to a 13 year old boy about how hard it is to mow the lawn. Miller, like a pain in the ass teenager, clearly approached the whole experience with a foot-dragging, huffy, non-constructive attitude, with the predetermined conclusion that _everything_ she was asked to do was, like, just _sooooooo_ unfair Yea, I don’t really have any opinion one way or the other about DC gun regulations, but I read the Miller article a few months ago when someone posted it in another thread and thought it was pretty dishonest. She goes out of her way to make minor tasks seem Herculean. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/10 "2012-06-13T15:32:26Z")
For how long has DC had these “strict” (if they are) gun laws? I got a new colleague some 25 years ago who had migrated from DC and USA because he didn’t want to live in a town where his female colleagues had to carry guns in their handbags to feel secure. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/11 "2012-06-13T17:01:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But let’s get serious here: listening to Ms. Miller on the travails of registering a firearm in DC is like listening to a 13 year old boy about how hard it is to mow the lawn. Miller, like a pain in the ass teenager, clearly approached the whole experience with a foot-dragging, huffy, non-constructive attitude, with the predetermined conclusion that _everything_ she was asked to do was, like, just _sooooooo_ unfair. Yep, what a cry-baby. Apparently DC requires you to take a gun safety course, those fiends, and pay fees. The funny thing is, I could have written a similar article about getting a “free” rescue dog from Fairfax county. Similar costs, classes, forms. Its almost as if some sort of bureaucracy is involved. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/12 "2012-06-13T17:10:49Z")
Miller did hype the inconvenience factor quite a bit, but there was one huge issue that really shocked me - you cannot find out if you’re approved for a gun license until you’ve actually paid for the gun & it’s at the DC dealer. So if you find out that they didn’t approve you, you’re screwed - gun purchases are generally non-refundable. I don’t believe any other state has this ass-backwards requirement. There’s also the fact that you can’t, by law, take a DC-approved gun safety class inside DC. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/13 "2012-06-13T19:34:05Z")
> [@Floater](#): > > For how long has DC had these “strict” (if they are) gun laws? I got a new colleague some 25 years ago who had migrated from DC and USA because he didn’t want to live in a town where his female colleagues had to carry guns in their handbags to feel secure. The Supreme Court ruling forcing DC to allow gun ownership is very new. When people point out that DC has a high rate of gun violence, but has strict gun ownership laws, they ignore the fact that DC borders Virginia where is is very easy to get a gun. I am not aware of Washingtonians, regardless of gender, who feel the need to carry a gun to feel safe. Neither my wife or I feel the need to be armed and we feel perfectly secure in DC. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/14 "2012-06-13T20:03:54Z")
> [@grude](#): > > For an example the first amendment, we don’t say \*note these topics are banned from free speech in Arizona, Alaska, and North Dakota. \*note religious freedom is not present in California and Georgia. Your analogy is flawed. Different jurisdictions do have different speech-related restrictions, just as different jurisdictions have different gun-related restrictions. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/15 "2012-06-13T20:30:40Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > I just think it has possibilities for standardization of rules, and more importantly setting a high standard for gun education and safety. The urbanization of America has outpaced most of the existing gun laws and has created a dramatically different landscape than when most firearm regulations were conceived. However, a uniform federal policy would be uniformly bad. What would be sensible and reasonable for an urban dweller in DC would be wasteful and overbearing for someone in rural Montana. Firearm regulations as with many legal issues should be crafted by the states to reflect the realities of those states. A bare bones minimum federal policy reflecting current general concerns would be an acceptable base for the states and individual municipalities to build more restrictive regulation upon that reflects the realities of their specific situation. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/16 "2012-06-13T20:41:57Z")
ribbit ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/17 "2012-06-13T20:46:02Z")
Since we had discussed those stories about registering firearms in DC some time ago, I just looked up DC’s current rules on guns. As of July 1, 2012, no training program is required, applicants only have to watch a video on firearm safety at no cost. The DC website for gun registration now makes specific mention of the $125 fee to transfer guns through a licensed dealer. And the fees for the application have been reduced to $48. [Cite.](http://mpdc.dc.gov/mpdc/cwp/view,a,1237,q,566996.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/18 "2012-06-14T02:01:40Z")
> [@grude](#): > > The second amendment of the US constitution is well known, yet gun laws are incredibly varied state by state. There has been very little constitutional law interpreting the second amendment. _Heller_ was, I think, only the second time a second amendment case has been heard by the Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/19 "2012-06-14T13:49:34Z")
Why does her “passport photo” cost $20? ANY photo can be a passport photo as long as it is in color and 2"x2". I took my passport photo with a cell phone camera and printed it at home. And a 30 minute drive? Sorry there isn’t a gun training facility on every corner! When I was a teenager, I had to spend hours driving around in a car with a creepy strange man in order to get my license. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-simple-terms-are-gun-laws-so-varied-across-the-usa/624992/20 "2012-06-14T14:31:36Z")
To go back to the OP: the reason gun laws are so varied is (1). Until very recently the Second Amendment was held to be solely a restriction on the action of the Federal government. (2.) Until roughly the New Deal, the states retained most sovereign powers regarding local laws. The idea of the federal government protecting citizens from oppressive _state_ governments is a fairly new role-reversal.