# Why, in the US, are attractive women called foxes?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [September 5, 2014, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563 "2014-09-05T07:57:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/1 "2014-09-05T07:57:16Z")
What is the etymology of this expression?
Foxes can be quite handsome animals, but no more than many other species, and attractive women do not generally have bushy tails, or long pointy snouts, or live in holes in the ground, or greatly enjoy killing chickens, so what (if any) analogy is in play here?
---
### Author:  [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/2 "2014-09-05T08:03:29Z")
Foxy also has the meaning clever, cunning, because of that association with the animal. I’m going to hazard a guess that the adjective was used in that sense about “seductresses” and got the meaning physcially attractive by association.
---
### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/3 "2014-09-05T08:55:59Z")
“Foxy” as an adjective describing a woman seems to predate “fox” as a noun applied to her. The OED is not the best source on US English, but it has cites for “foxy” applied to a woman from 1913, while “fox” in that context first comes up in 1963. That’s a big gap. So I’m guessing that “foxy” is the older usage, and “fox” is a development of it.
Wild guess: “foxy”, meaning stylish, attractive, is in some way conneced with the fashion for fox-fur wraps. You know - those ones that came with a head and eyes and all.
---
### Author:  [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/4 "2014-09-05T08:59:09Z")
Lots of discussions around the web on this. The term seems to be black American from the late 19th century, but there is no specific attribution.
Fox is used as a descriptive term for both pretty women (foxy lady) and crafty people (sly old fox). Of course it is one of those creatures much romanticized in children’s literature and therefore seen by those not familiar with the real version as clever and pretty. Foxed is a description of an old and discoloured book, or a drunk person. To fox someone is to fool or confuse someone.
All in all fox and its derivatives is a pretty versatile word.
---
### Author:  [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/5 "2014-09-05T09:12:14Z")
vixen meaning “ill tempered woman” has been around since the late 1500s. Vixen also means female fox.
---
### Author:  [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/6 "2014-09-05T10:21:31Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#):
>
> vixen meaning “ill tempered woman” has been around since the late 1500s. Vixen also means female fox.
That’s not what ‘vixen’ in relation to a woman, means to me. The definition “_a spirited or argumentative woman._” is how I would see her. I suspect that it used to be a description some misogynistic men might have used for any female that stood up to them.
---
### Author:  [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/7 "2014-09-05T11:13:55Z")
> [@bob\_2](#):
>
> That’s not what ‘vixen’ in relation to a woman, means to me.
You were not around in the 1570s.
I’m not really sure what you were getting at in your post. Are you saying there is no relation at all between calling women vixens (a fox) in 1570 and calling them a fox today?
I was just pointing out that calling a women a “fox” goes back over 400 years, certainly before the 19th Century. They were using a different word for fox, but they were calling women foxes, and 400 years is plenty of time for the term to shift meanings.
> [@](#):
>
> The definition “a spirited or argumentative woman.” is how I would see her.
Is that what “vixen” means to you today? I don’t think everyone shares that vision with you. Hell, all you need to do is a Bing image search for “vixen” to see that it now means the same a “fox”. That is, an attractive women.
---
### Author:  [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/8 "2014-09-05T11:53:39Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#):
>
> You were not around in the 1570s.
> I’m not really sure what you were getting at in your post. Are you saying there is no relation at all between calling women vixens (a fox) in 1570 and calling them a fox today?
> I was just pointing out that calling a women a “fox” goes back over 400 years, certainly before the 19th Century. They were using a different word for fox, but they were calling women foxes, and 400 years is plenty of time for the term to shift meanings.
>
> Is that what “vixen” means to you today? I don’t think everyone shares that vision with you. Hell, all you need to do is a Bing image search for “vixen” to see that it now means the same a “fox”. That is, an attractive women.
I can only speak from an English perspective, but I don’t see any feisty ladies in the news described as ‘vixens’ these days; I do however see ‘foxy’ used as a complimentary adjective, although not often. I suspect that most vulpine references in respect of women come from the Western side of the Atlantic.
I note that the OP refers to US usage.
---
### Author:  [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/9 "2014-09-05T12:00:47Z")
It’s because men in the U.S. don’t have a clue. When was the last time you read about a Fox tearing the heart out of (and smiling while shaking it before him) a man? Christ, the OP outta be flogged.
---
### Author:  [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/10 "2014-09-05T12:01:10Z")
nm
---
### Author:  [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/11 "2014-09-05T12:04:21Z")
> [@bob\_2](#):
>
> I can only speak from an English perspective, but I don’t see any feisty ladies in the news described as ‘vixens’ these days; I do however see ‘foxy’ used as a complimentary adjective, although not often.
I don’t really see or hear either term. But whenever I do, they have the same meaning and are practically interchangeable. Vixen has more of a promiscuity vibe to it, though. In fact, I didn’t know that vixen meant ill tempered (or anything negative with regards to a woman) until I looked it up at [www.etymonline.com](http://www.etymonline.com) for this thread.
---
### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/12 "2014-09-05T13:23:40Z")
> [@UDS](#):
>
> “Foxy” as an adjective describing a woman seems to predate “fox” as a noun applied to her. The OED is not the best source on US English, but it has cites for “foxy” applied to a woman from 1913, while “fox” in that context first comes up in 1963. That’s a big gap. So I’m guessing that “foxy” is the older usage, and “fox” is a development of it.
>
> Wild guess: “foxy”, meaning stylish, attractive, is in some way conneced with the fashion for fox-fur wraps. You know - those ones that came with a head and eyes and all.
To call a woman a “fox” is indeed a back formation of the term “foxy.” _Foxy_ was used mainly by students in the 1890’s as an adjective to describe things that were stylish or attractive. _Foxy_ continued to be used, especially in Black English in the 1940s and later.
_Fox_, noun for a pretty woman(and usually sexually so) is totally from Black English and can be cited in print from 1961.
---
### Author:  [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/13 "2014-09-05T14:21:22Z")
Has anyone here heard the term “foxy” used since about… 1983 or so by anyone younger than about 50?
I’m 42, and the term always struck me as a very 1970s term, even if it does date a lot further back than that.
---
### Author:  [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/14 "2014-09-05T14:54:28Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> Has anyone here heard the term “foxy” used since about… 1983 or so by anyone younger than about 50?
>
> I’m 42, and the term always struck me as a very 1970s term, even if it does date a lot further back than that.
More 60s than 70s. Hendrix popularized it in his song “Foxy Lady”. I’d really not heard the term prior to that, and then everybody was using it.
---
### Author:  [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/15 "2014-09-05T15:05:25Z")
Because “wolves” was already in use to describe the men who aggressively pursue them? 😉
To be serious, this is a very educational thread.
* * *
> [@bump](#):
>
> Has anyone here heard the term “foxy” used since about… 1983 or so by anyone younger than about 50?
>
> I’m 42, and the term always struck me as a very 1970s term, even if it does date a lot further back than that.
I keep thinking of the song with the refrain:
… FOXY lady!
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SXVOkJTSTs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SXVOkJTSTs)
… and it seems that there was a commercial that cited the music in connection with Christina Applegate, who played whatzername on “[Married… with Children](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married..._with_Children)”
But is you are drawing a blank in spite of being old enough to remember the series in production, or at least early syndication days, it’s entirely possible that it was only a local affiliate that had the promo.
---
### Author:  [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/16 "2014-09-05T15:05:49Z")
Don’t forget Pam Grier as _Foxy Brown_.
---
### Author:  [@Bones\_Daley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bones_Daley)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/17 "2014-09-05T15:09:37Z")
Also don’t forget the classic line from the original UK spoof documentary “The Office” :
“What’s the difference between a dog and a fox ?”
"About six pints " …
---
### Author:  [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/18 "2014-09-05T15:40:42Z")
> [@Chefguy](#):
>
> More 60s than 70s. Hendrix popularized it in his song “Foxy Lady”. I’d really not heard the term prior to that, and then everybody was using it.
Maybe so… I just remember the last time I heard it used in earnest was when I was a kid- maybe 6 or 7, which would have been in the late 70s. Since then, it’s been a term used to indicate the out-of-touchness of a character from what I can tell.
---
### Author:  [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/19 "2014-09-05T15:43:55Z")
> [@Chefguy](#):
>
> More 60s than 70s. Hendrix popularized it in his song “Foxy Lady”. I’d really not heard the term prior to that, and then everybody was using it.
The Doors “20th Century Fox” came out at about the same time, and I think of that one, too. A bit of research suggests The Doors release was a bit earlier (early 1967 as opposed to mid 1967).
---
### Author:  [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563/20 "2014-09-05T15:48:07Z")
My impression is that “vixen” and “fox”, as used of women, carry very different connotations. As I hear it, "fox"is pretty much entirely complimentary, and entirely about appearance. “Vixen” is fairly derogatory, and, although it is also applied to good-looking women, is largely about behavior. A vixen is a seductress, and probably not to be trusted; a fox just looks good, and no comment on her chastity or personality is implied.
I can well believe that “foxy” predated “fox”, but that just pushes the problem back a step. I suppose it is also possible that “fox” might be a variant of “vixen” that has somehow became stripped of its negative connotations, but is ther any evidence for that? It seems to me that it is just as likely that they have quite independent origins, as applied to women.
It is also my impression, as someone quite familiar with both cultures, that “fox” and “foxy” are clearly of American origin, and remains very rare the UK (unlike the actual animal), whereas “vixen” is about equally common (and about equally as old-fashioned sounding) on either side of the Atlantic. Maybe it is true that “fox/foxy” is dated too, these days, but not nearly as much so to my ear.
If Jimi Hendrix’s “Foxy Lady” is what popularized the term, it seems odd that it caught on in America so much more than in Britain (where Hendrix was actually based). I am sure I have quite frequently heard American’s use it, without any hint of archness or self-consciousness, much more recently than the 1960s and '70s, but I do not think I have _ever_ heard a Brit use it, except in one or two other pop songs (and it has always been common for British pop to ape American idioms). Incidentally, _The Doors_ also had a song “Twentieth Century Fox”, on their first album, that uses “fox” in this sense, and which seems to have been released a few months before the Hendrix song. [Ninjaed by **yabob**!]
> [@Little\_Pig](#):
>
> It’s because men in the U.S. don’t have a clue. When was the last time you read about a Fox tearing the heart out of (and smiling while shaking it before him) a man? Christ, the OP outta be flogged.
Wha? 😕
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-in-the-us-are-attractive-women-called-foxes/697563.md?page=2)