# Why "intelligent designers" can't grasp evolution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033 "2005-07-11T17:59:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/61 "2005-07-12T17:51:39Z")
Intelligent Design **ists** (the “-er” is what the “-ists” posit…) do graps evolution. They even accept it, in general cases. Where they deviate from scientific thought is when they posit that an Intelligent Designer is _necessary_ to explain the diversity of life. I’ve often said that thast there are essentially two aspects to evolutionary theory: the mechanistic theories, and the historical pathways. Few IDists deny that the mechanisms function as adverstised; they simply deny that they can produce all known “end results”, because the specific historical pathway that is necessary to produce a given trait or structure via those mechanisms is either unknown or incomplete. For example, how can natural selection produce the vertebrate eye, or a bacterial flagellum? In cases where science is unable to provide an answer _at the time_, the default assumption of IDists seems to be that the structure/behavior/other trait in question must therefore be too complicated for science to resolve the pathway, therefore a Designer must have been responsible. In other words, the Intelligent Designer is relegated to being an _ad hoc_ explanation for unresolved historical pathways _by its own proponents_! ID becomes Special Creation, writ small. Eventually, science may catch up to a specific problem, and a suitable pathway is discovered (e.g., bacterial flagella may have evolved from primitive protein secretion structures), rendering the Designer unnecessary in that instance. And so it goes. What IDists _do_ fail to grasp, in my opinion, is the fact that evolutionary theory as currently formulated does not render an Intelligent Designer (or just plain God, if you prefer) non-existant, only that the explanations provided render such a designer _unnecessary_. A tinkerer is not required to explain life as we know it. That does not mean such a tinkerer does not / cannot exist. The main point being that science is meant to be free of any particular metaphysical assumptions. God may or may not exist, but we have no way of _knowing_ one way or the other. Therefore, it would behoove us to find explanations that do not require a god, just in case. ID, on the other hand, _requires_ that God exist (and that God tinkered at one or more points in Life’s history, and that He left identifiable hallmarks of this tinkering…). On this basis alone, it is less powerful as an explanation, simply because it is absolutely wrong **if** there is no God. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/62 "2005-07-12T18:19:25Z")
I don’t deny that some kind of “intelligence” is possible. After all, we are here and we do think. There may be something behind DNA which “desires” organization. But I stop short of attributing that intelligence to a theistic God which is emotionally similar to man. The descriptions of an omnipotent God who creates galaxies on a whim does not fit with the painstaking process of biological evolution. I believe the universe may organize itself on a kind of fractal system. For example nuclear/orbital organization (more theoretically than not sometimes) exists on small scales and large. Maybe consciousness exists in the universe in a fractal way. But a somatic cell in my pinky toe, with its fractal organelles, even though it behaves as though it knows what it is doing, synthesizing proteins and such, doesn’t have a personal relationship with the greater consciousness of which it is a component, namely, me. Why would we believe that we can have a personal relationship with a greater consciousness, especially with all the evidence that if there is one, it don’t give a crap what happens to us. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/63 "2005-07-12T18:22:48Z")
**Tom~** …thanks again for the clarification. By far, the best posts on this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/64 "2005-07-12T19:15:31Z")
> [@Darwin's Finch](#): > > The main point being that science is meant to be free of any particular metaphysical assumptions. Tom’s posts are good indeed, but that statement is the single most important assertion made thus far. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/65 "2005-07-12T19:44:05Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > **Tom~** …thanks again for the clarification. By far, the best posts on this thread. There should be a “Greek Orgy” forum for gratuitous rim jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/66 "2005-07-12T20:47:26Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] Ok, that is enough of [that sort of comment](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4749265&postcount=3), Ex Machina. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/67 "2005-07-12T20:55:28Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > [Moderator Hat ON] > > Ok, that is enough of [that sort of comment](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4749265&postcount=3), Ex Machina. > > [Moderator Hat OFF] What do hubcaps have to do with sex? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/68 "2005-07-12T21:11:06Z")
Wow, the greek orgies featured hubcaps thousands of years before they were invented? Who knew. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/69 "2005-07-12T21:15:26Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > Wow, the greek orgies featured hubcaps thousands of years before they were invented? Who knew. The still have orgies in present day Greece. Sometimes they have them right in the limo with rims and all. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/70 "2005-07-12T23:38:25Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > There should be a “Greek Orgy” forum for gratuitous rim jobs. And there should be a comprehension test after you read the SDMB rules, and before you post something that doesn’t belong…but we can all dream, can’t we **Ex**? :wally And at the risk of performing another rim job upon the masses in the eyes of **Ex** …yes **Lib** , I do have to agree with you there. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/71 "2005-07-12T23:44:57Z")
**Yeticus** , while I appreciate your support, the “Wally” smiley is also prohibited in **GD**. Let’s keep the discussion on the discussion and not on the posters or our personal reactions to them. There is another Forum for that. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/72 "2005-07-12T23:51:22Z")
Theistic Evolution? The notion that some divine creator put things in motion with the mechanism of evolution through mutation and adaptation strikes me as even more far-fetched than a creator simply creating things as we see them now. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033/73 "2005-07-13T00:19:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **Yeticus** , while I appreciate your support, the “Wally” smiley is also prohibited in **GD**. Let’s keep the discussion on the discussion and not on the posters or our personal reactions to them. There is another Forum for that. > > [/Moderating] Ok, I got it. I thought I had scaled back my reply enough, but apparently, I also need that comphrehension test as well. :smack: Even though the OP is a little skewed, this thread has helped me find a definition that describes my own beliefs, and that is why I was “[del]b[/del]rimming over with joy” reading your posts, orgies notwithstanding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-intelligent-designers-cant-grasp-evolution/312033.md?page=3)