# Why "Irish Free State"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 14, 2022, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508 "2022-12-14T13:51:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/1 "2022-12-14T13:51:13Z")
I’m curious about the origins of the name “Irish Free State”, which was used between 1922 and 1937. Skimming Wikipedia on the establishment of the State, the Anglo-Irish Treaty and so on, I don’t see any explanation for who came up with it as a name? Note: I’m putting this into FQ because I’m interested in the origins of the name; don’t want a lengthy debate on the events leading up to the Treaty, etc. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/2 "2022-12-14T13:57:00Z")
We have a published Irish Historian among the members of the board, I’ll page him but he’s been missing for over a year. @An_Gadai ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/3 "2022-12-14T15:03:27Z")
I couldn’t say how they landed upon the exact phrase “Free State”–I believe it was in part something translatable from the Irish language. However, I do believe that the British government definitely wanted to avoid any terminology that would imply or explicitly label Ireland as a republic. The British wanted to keep Ireland under the sovereignty of the British monarch. On the other hand, they wanted to satisfy the Irish independence movement that they were getting some kind of freedom or independence from British rule. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/4 "2022-12-14T15:31:35Z")
There was also Orange Free State, a Boer republic in present-day South Africa. And Wikipedia has an article about the term “[free state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_state_(polity))”, with a long list of examples. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/5 "2022-12-14T15:47:42Z")
This corner of Wikipedia discusses the origins of the name. > **[Names of the Irish state](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state)** > > According to the Constitution of Ireland, the names of the Irish state are Ireland (English) and Éire (Irish). From 1922 to 1937, its legal name was the Irish Free State. The state has jurisdiction over almost five-sixths of the island of Ireland. The rest of the island is Northern Ireland, a part of the United Kingdom. Consequently, other formal and informal names have been (and are) used when it is necessary to distinguish between the territory of the state and the island as a whole. In 194 ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/6 "2022-12-14T16:12:30Z")
Key sentence from that article: > The self-proclaimed [Irish Republic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republic) had used _Saorstát Éireann_ as its Irish name, and “Irish Free State” was derived by [literal translation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calque) of _Saorstát Éireann_ back into English. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/7 "2022-12-14T16:28:35Z")
There also were the [Free Territory of Trieste](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory_of_Trieste) and the [Free City of Danzig](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig), and heaven only knows how many other political jurisdictions with some sort of qualifier in their names. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/8 "2022-12-14T17:27:13Z")
“The term _saorstát_ thus represented a compromise in terminology: constitutional monarchists could accept it as a less explicit rejection of the monarchy than the term _republic_ itself, while republicans could choose to interpret it as signifying a republic by any other name.” So it is a diplomatic term. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/9 "2022-12-14T17:46:25Z")
In the case of Danzig (and other historically “free” cities in the German-speaking parts of Europe), this is reminiscent of the free imperial cities of the Holy Roman Empire. It designates a city-state, i.e., a state which consists of only one city. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/10 "2022-12-14T18:17:18Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > There was also Orange Free State, a Boer republic in present-day South Africa. It was still the name of a province of South Africa until the 1990s. I remember seeing it on a map as a kid and thinking it meant oranges were outlawed there… ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/11 "2022-12-14T18:19:47Z")
I thought the same thing. Broccoli Free State would be a popular holiday destination for kids. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/12 "2022-12-14T19:10:05Z")
The Government of Ireland Act 1920 had originally created an entity called Southern Ireland to go with Northern Ireland, the partitioned state for the Unionists. As it turned out, Southern Ireland was stillborn, the Nationalists would have nothing to do with the structures it created. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/13 "2022-12-14T19:36:00Z")
Ah, so I was right on both counts: > During the negotiations on secession leading to the [Anglo-Irish Treaty](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Treaty), Irish politicians wanted the state to be a republic, and its name to be the _Republic of Ireland_ or the _Irish Republic_ . However the [British government](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_government) refused to contemplate a republic because this would have entailed the Irish state severing the link with the British crown and ceasing to be a part of the [British Empire](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire). Instead, the parties agreed the state would be a self-governing [Dominion](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Dominions) within the [British Commonwealth of Nations](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations). The self-proclaimed [Irish Republic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republic) had used _Saorstát Éireann_ as its Irish name, and “Irish Free State” was derived by [literal translation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calque) of _Saorstát Éireann_ back into English. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2022, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/14 "2022-12-14T20:52:04Z")
Free Willy State never even got around to adopting a constitution. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/15 "2022-12-15T00:19:32Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > There was also Orange Free State, a Boer republic in present-day South Africa This could be relevant. Jan Smuts was very involved in influencing events leading up to the Anglo-Irish Treaty, including visits to Dublin to meet de Valera and attempting to persuade Lloyd George against a violent response to Irish national aspirations. He is reputed to have said to de Valera “ask what you want, but not a republic”, meaning that the one red line for the British government would be a rejection of the king as head of state. He wanted to persuade both sides to accept a Dominion status for Ireland. It is in this context that I am certain I have read that Smuts proposed the term “Free State” as a compromise, having asked the Irish for a literal translation of their word for “Republic”, and being reminded of the name of the Orange Free State. Sadly I don’t remember where I came across this story. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/16 "2022-12-15T00:22:22Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > It was still the name of a province of South Africa until the 1990s. I remember seeing it on a map as a kid and thinking it meant oranges were outlawed there… The “Orange” was dropped but the South African province is still named “Free State”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/17 "2022-12-15T01:05:42Z")
This has all been fascinating. Thanks, everyone! ☘ ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/18 "2022-12-15T01:11:07Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > This corner of Wikipedia discusses the origins of the name. Thanks for that. I missed that in my wiki-browsing. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/19 "2022-12-15T01:29:47Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > Jan Smuts was very involved in influencing events leading up to the Anglo-Irish Treaty, including visits to Dublin to meet de Valera and attempting to persuade Lloyd George against a violent response to Irish national aspirations. He is reputed to have said to de Valera “ask what you want, but not a republic”, meaning that the one red line for the British government would be a rejection of the king as head of state. That line-up fits. Smuts was a strong go-between between the British government and other Dominions. When the Balfour Déclaration was in the works four years later, the Irish, South Africans and Canadians were the ones who pressed for it most strongly. The Australians, New Zealanders and Newfoundlanders were much more ambivalent. That same ambivalence showed up five years later with the Statute of Westminster. Ireland, South Africa and Canada wanted it to apply automatically, so it did for them. Cosgrave said that the Declaration and the Statute fulfilled Collins’ assessment of the Treaty: « It gives us the freedom to be free. » Australia, NZ and Newfoundland didn’t want the Statute to apply until ratified by local legislation. Oz and NZ didn’t do so until WWII, and Newfoundland never did. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508/20 "2022-12-15T11:25:37Z")
Newfoundland can decide for themselves separately from the federal government of Canada? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-irish-free-state/976508.md?page=2)