# Why is American politics so much more polarized than it used to be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164 "2013-08-02T16:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/161 "2013-10-17T17:11:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “Men, all this stuff you hear about America not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war, is a lot of bullshit. Americans love to fight. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. When you were kids, you all admired the champion marble shooter, the fastest runner, the big-league ball players and the toughest boxers. Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser. Americans play to win all the time. That’s why Americans have never lost and will never lose a war. The very thought of losing is hateful to Americans. Battle is the most significant competitions in which a man can indulge. It brings out all that is best and it removes all that is base.” > > – [Gen. George S. Patton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton's_speech_to_the_Third_Army) The blind bleeding the blind. Charge! Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/162 "2013-10-17T17:19:22Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > How would I know? Would politicians be more honest? Either the Constitution is an anti-democratic document, your claim, or it’s not. If the answer varies based on the factors external to the document itself - that is, the decisions of state legislatures - then your claim can be shown to be false. The Constitution neither mandates a perfect, modern democracy (since it leaves the question of who may vote up to the states, beyond “The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government”), nor is it anti-democratic. It is an incomplete framework for a democratic government. [QUOTE=jsutter] I think the Founding Fathers are turning over in their graves at what’s going on today. While they enjoyed their wealth, they were also men of mind and appreciated education for its own sake. We’ve become a meritocracy of money in the world’s most powerful kleptocracy. [/quote] That’s fine, but unrelated. [QUOTE=jsutter] But it does say who chooses who you can vote for. [/quote] 😕 The framers themselves chose who one can vote _for_, by writing requirements for being a candidate for President, the House, and the Senate into the Constitution. Notably, those requirements make no reference to ethnicity, gender, or property ownership: > [@](#): > > No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen. > [@](#): > > No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen. > [@](#): > > No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States. [QUOTE=jsutter] I disagee. [/quote] Really? Consider, say, the song “Old Dan Tucker”. It’s not democratic, but it’s certainly not anti-democratic. [QUOTE=jsutter] Alohahaha. Things have changed since 1840. That said, Hawaii is a special case, the only state not on the continent consisting of eight island counties. In Kauai, the CEO is known as the The Mayor of Kauai and everyone knows him or someone who does. He is responsible to his constituents. If wasn’t, he’d be out on his ear. We can talk about it elsewhere if you like. 🙂 Aloha [/QUOTE] The 1840 Hawaii Constitution is an anti-democratic document: it reserves government power to an unelected, hereditary monarch. The [Constitution of Turkey](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Republic_of_Turkey) is a democratic document: it creates a government of elected representatives, selected by all citizens over the age of 18. The United States Constitution is neither. It’s an incomplete framework for a republic, that devolves a crucial component of a democracy - universal suffrage - to state legislatures. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/163 "2013-10-17T17:43:53Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Either the Constitution is an anti-democratic document, your claim, or it’s not. … Whatever. I go by its fruits. It’s my belief. You don’t like it, don’t quote me. > [@](#): > > The United States Constitution is neither. It’s an incomplete framework for a republic, that devolves a crucial component of a democracy - universal suffrage - to state legislatures. And an open minded study of American History will show you how that has really worked. Well, that’s it for a while. We’re way off the OP and I have things to do. See you later. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/164 "2013-10-17T17:44:07Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > They couldn’t have sold it to the populace and expect them to pay taxes and to use them as cannon fodder in their wars among themselves if they did, but that’s the way it’s always been practiced. Nothing? You couldn’t think of one thing in the Constitution to point to? Wow, what a let-down. Guess it’s easier to throw around words like kleptocracy than to back them up. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/165 "2013-10-17T18:09:44Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Whatever. I go by its fruits. It’s my belief. You don’t like it, don’t quote me. This is Great Debates, not IMHO. [QUOTE=jsutter] And an open minded study of American History will show you how that has really worked. [/quote] So, by “The Constitution is an anti-democratic document” you meant “The United States wasn’t a modern democracy with universal suffrage at the time the Constitution was ratified”. Try to choose your words more carefully, if you wish to be understood. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Nothing? You couldn’t think of one thing in the Constitution to point to? > > Wow, what a let-down. Guess it’s easier to throw around words like kleptocracy than to back them up. The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/166 "2013-10-17T21:02:11Z")
I like how the non-democratic Hawaiian constitution has changed and led to a political paradise but the older, democratic US constitution has led to a kleptocracy. Neat feat. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/167 "2013-10-17T21:46:11Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The 1840 Hawaii Constitution is an anti-democratic document: it reserves government power to an unelected, hereditary monarch. At least it was a **constitutional** monarchy. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/168 "2013-10-18T01:05:43Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > As we did just before the Civil War?.. You actually support my point, we now live in two distinct nations much like we did before the civil war. I don’t think we really share the same values or culture. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/169 "2013-10-18T01:23:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > At least it was a **constitutional** monarchy. You could do worse for 1840. > [@madmonk28](#): > > You actually support my point, we now live in two distinct nations much like we did before the civil war. I don’t think we really share the same values or culture. One major difference is that the nations are no longer geographical regions like the North and the South, but instead urban centers and rural areas. That precludes a secession. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/170 "2013-10-18T01:30:39Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > You actually support my point, we now live in two distinct nations much like we did before the civil war. I don’t think we really share the same values or culture. [No, eleven.](http://www.amazon.com/American-Nations-History-Regional-Cultures/dp/0143122029) ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/171 "2013-10-18T01:36:33Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I like how the non-democratic Hawaiian constitution has changed and led to a political paradise but the older, democratic US constitution has led to a kleptocracy. Neat feat. I agree. I attribute it to the agreeable climate and Aloha here. All the water, sun, fish and fruit you need, on the beach. Kauai is hoovering tourist dollars now and pouring them into the local infrastructure. Sustainable after the sure-to-come fall. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > At least it was a **constitutional** monarchy. Again, 1840. It’s very egalitarian now. > [@madmonk28](#): > > You actually support my point, we now live in two distinct nations much like we did before the civil war. I don’t think we really share the same values or culture. And who is we? No snark here. For whom do you think you speak? Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/172 "2013-10-18T03:46:20Z")
The Constitution is an anti-democratic document: it’s meant to take certain issues away from the immediate reach of the electorate. I mean, I see nothing wrong with this, but I have no illusions about it, and I don’t have to buy into moonbattery to hold this view. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/173 "2013-10-18T04:08:39Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > The Constitution is an anti-democratic document: it’s meant to take certain issues away from the immediate reach of the electorate. > > I mean, I see nothing wrong with this, but I have no illusions about it, and I don’t have to buy into moonbattery to hold this view. Nevertheless, the United States is and always was intended to be a democratic republic. As opposed to an aristocratic republic, like the old Venetian Republic, where only the merchant-princes of the Golden Book got to vote. The U.S. Constitution forbids titles of nobility for that reason. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/174 "2013-10-18T09:12:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nevertheless, the United States is and always was intended to be a democratic republic. As opposed to an aristocratic republic, like the old Venetian Republic, where only the merchant-princes of the Golden Book got to vote. The U.S. Constitution forbids titles of nobility for that reason. Good intentions, but … for the first half of the 19th century, corporations were held on a very short leash by their state charters and the idea of corporations as people would have been laughed at, north and south. Folks back then were well aware that large concentrations of capital, by their nature, were a corrosive, corruptive and subversive influence on political process. I’m sure I don’t need to point out that is hardly the case today where corporations are our merchant princes who own the govt and greed is institutionalized as a virtue. The Constitution effectively marginalized the vast poor majority and placed the small well-to-do minority firmly in power. Is that Democracy? I don’t think so. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/175 "2013-10-18T13:08:21Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > I agree. I attribute it to the agreeable climate and Aloha here. All the water, sun, fish and fruit you need, on the beach. Kauai is hoovering tourist dollars now and pouring them into the local infrastructure. Sustainable after the sure-to-come fall. > > Again, 1840. It’s very egalitarian now. > > And who is we? No snark here. For whom do you think you speak? > Aloha Sorry, I meant that the two different America’s dont’ share the same values and culture. When I go to Arkansas to visit my in-laws, I feel very much like a foreigner; much more so than when I’m in western Europe. In the county where my in-laws live, alcohol is illegal, people talk openly about the rapture and the anti-christ, and at a highschool football game we went to, everyone stopped and prayed evertime one of the players got hurt. I mean everyone: the players and cheerleaders on both teams, the people in the stands, it was truly weird (and I’m currently in Afghanistan, so I know a thing or two about being surrounded by fundamentalists). Also, the football stadium was nice, I mean really nice, but the school itself looked pretty run down and I know it is a poor community. Not only that, but people walk around carrying guns and camoflage is a perfectly acceptable fabric for wearing around town. It all adds up to a very different culture than the one I live in. The common beliefs held in communities like that are not just different than those held by my community, but they are often antithetical to our beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/176 "2013-10-18T13:30:36Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > They couldn’t have sold it to the populace and expect them to pay taxes and to use them as cannon fodder in their wars among themselves if they did, but that’s the way it’s always been practiced. > > Call me a cynic if you will, but it seems to me that most nation state governments are simply the legal face of organized crime. Even the best intentioned republic is by it’s nature going to prove corrupt. > Too few reps for too many people insures that nobody personally knows who is representing them in the back room. > Anyone who doesn’t understand that needs to develop a little critical thinking, imho. Aloha Cynic? No. You just have a bizarre and wildly ignorant view of modern government. The US Constitution is not written so that every single American gets enough representation to have their own way. It is written as a complex series of checks and balances to ensure that no single leader gets too much of his own way. People bemoan the polarized politics in DC or think the recent debacle with the government shut down is the system not working. It is the system working exactly as designed. Countries like Syria and North Korea don’t have these problems. If anyone thinks American politics was any less heated or polarized in the time of Washington or Lincoln or Kennedy I would urge them to read up on the subject. > [@madmonk28](#): > > Sorry, I meant that the two different America’s dont’ share the same values and culture. According to a recent poll, America is less polarized than one might expect. Most Americans poll as moderate while a relatively small but vocal few lie on the extremes. Unfortunately it’s those extremes that make for good ratings for the 24 hour news channels. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/177 "2013-10-18T13:59:04Z")
I’ve seen polling data that nearly half of Americans believe that “God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years.” [In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins](http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/Hold-Creationist-View-Human-Origins.aspx) That’s a third world level of ignorance there and I’m willing to bet a lot of them live in the part of the country often called red state America. You pretty much can’t find these kinds of attitudes anywhere else in the developed world. I don’t see how we bridge this gap in our understanding between these two cultures. I certainly don’t want to compromise with them and say, agree that the world is 20,000 years old, just to keep the peace. Do we let them pull us down, or do we try to contain them as much as possible and create defacto seperate countries within the US? I think its clear what we’ve done. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/178 "2013-10-18T14:00:48Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I’ve seen polling data that nearly half of Americans believe that “God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years.” [In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins](http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/Hold-Creationist-View-Human-Origins.aspx) > > That’s a third world level of ignorance there and I’m willing to bet a lot of them live in the part of the country often called red state America. You pretty much can’t find these kinds of attitudes anywhere else in the developed world. Much of “Red State America” can barely be considered “the developed world”. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/179 "2013-10-18T15:06:46Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Sorry, I meant that the two different America’s dont’ share the same values and culture. > … > It all adds up to a very different culture than the one I live in. The common beliefs held in communities like that are not just different than those held by my community, but they are often antithetical to our beliefs. That’s for sure. North and South really are two different worlds. Hawaii doesn’t really have to deal with that divide. We’re very insular 🙂 here yet quite cosmopolitan in our acceptance of individual differences. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164/180 "2013-10-18T19:01:32Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Cynic? No. You just have a bizarre and wildly ignorant view of modern government. I long ago unsubscribed from the American Myth of Government I was brought up on. You, obviously, have bought it hook, line and sinker. That’s all I’ll have to say to you. I no longer attempt to teach pigs to sing. [Urban Dictionary: Teaching a pig to sing](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Teaching%20a%20pig%20to%20sing) Aloha [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-american-politics-so-much-more-polarized-than-it-used-to-be/665164.md?page=10)