# Why is "attempted murder" a lesser crime than murder? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2002, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479 "2002-11-19T06:16:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![knock\_knock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/22d042/32.png) [@knock\_knock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/knock_knock)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479/21 "2002-11-20T04:10:24Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Gomez_ > **Can anyone give me a good reason why a man who shoots at his victims heart, but misses it by a quarter of an inch, should be treated more leniently than a man who’s aim was more accurate?** Here’s one reason: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pravnik \* > **If we punish attempt less severely than completion, aren’t we just rewarding criminal incompetence? The criminal gets a break because his victim pulled through?** We want to reward “criminal incompetence” because there is a slight chance that it gives criminals an incentive to not successfully complete the murder. Another reason is that courts tend to punish people for the actual effects of their actions, not the expected effects of their actions. A drunk driver who barrels through a red light gets punished, a drunk driver who barrels through a red light and happens to hit a pedestrian gets punished a lot more, even though the behavior of the drivers is identical. Another example is felony murder, as mentioned by **msmith537**. Punishing people based on actual results instead of expected results amounts to the same thing, it just makes would-be criminals have to worry about the probabilities, instead of courts worrying about them. Although I believe punishments for attempted murder tend to come close to those for murder. The main reason is probably based on revenge. I wouldn’t call it a good reason, because in general I don’t think retribution is a good reason for punishment (but that’s another GD). Attempted murder just seems less bad, worthy of a lesser degree of vengeance. For instance, for those who support the death penalty for murderers, how many would support the death penalty for attempted murderers? ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479/22 "2002-11-20T04:29:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shagnasty \* > \*\*Do you even know what attempted murder is? It doesn’t mean that the intended victim wasn’t harmed at all. It may mean that he had half of his brains blown out but still managed to cling to life as a vegetable. The OP was asking (rightfully IMO), why the would be murderer’s fate should depend at all on the victim’s tenacity to cling to life. \*\* Um, yes, I do know what attempted murder is. Not all attempted murders result in injury. If I recall correctly from Criminal Law class, an attempted murder requires the intent to do murder (_mens rea_) and an act in furtherance of that intent sufficiently likely to bring about the result. So firing your gun at somebody, and missing him, is still attempted murder even if no harm was done. Here’s a definition of attempt from the [law.com](http://law.com) dictionary, since I can’t find my copy of Black’s: > [@](#): > > v. and n. to actually try to commit a crime and have the ability to do so. This means more than just thinking about doing a criminal act or planning it without overt action. It also requires the opportunity and ability. Attempts can include attempted murder, attempted robbery, attempted rape, attempted forgery, attempted arson, and a host of other crimes. The person accused cannot attempt to commit murder with an unloaded gun or attempt rape over the telephone. The attempt becomes a crime in itself, and usually means one really tried to commit the crime, but failed through no fault of himself or herself. Example: if a husband laces his wife’s cocktail with cyanide, it is no defense that by chance the intended victim decided not to drink the deadly potion. One defendant claimed he could not attempt rape in an old Model A coupe because it was too cramped to make the act possible. The court threw out this defense. Sometimes a criminal defendant is accused of both the crime (e.g. robbery) and the attempt in case the jury felt he tried but did not succeed. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479/23 "2002-11-20T05:25:10Z")
I actually brought this topic up two years ago in [Murder and Attempted Murder](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=48564). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Ramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Ramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramanujan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479/24 "2002-11-20T06:06:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by j\_kat\_251 \* > > > [@](#): > > > > If someone intends to kill, shouldn’t that in itself constitute murder? > > \*\*THOUGHTCRIME \*\* those were my thoughts exactly. people have attempted to address this issue by claiming that the thought and the actions are not equivalent. i agree, but i must add that the _intentions_ and the attempt are also not equivalent. intentions are only thoughts, right? so one may intend to kill someone without actually making an attempt. if that person is prosecuted, hello big brother. -d-squared ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479/25 "2002-11-20T11:19:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cuate \* > I suppose if you want to get technical, there must be a dead victim for murder to occur. But, to me, reason tells me that the crime is in the intent and the action and not it’s result. No, crime is in the action or consequence, not in the intent. Only intent makes it worse. So you still get punished for accidentally killing a person, even if you had no intention to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479/26 "2002-11-20T11:57:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ramanujan \* > \*\* but i must add that the _intentions_ and the attempt are also not equivalent. intentions are only thoughts, right? \*\* I disagree. The intent is the thought coupled with the action. The criminal took action to take another person’s life. (I know we all hate it when someone brings up a dictionary definition, but it seems appropriate. American Heritage: **intent** 2. _The state of mind operative at the time of an action_) IMO, a criminal should not get a break soley because his/her victim was lucky (or sometimes unlucky) enough to survive. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479/27 "2002-11-20T12:34:32Z")
\>\> sailor, The difference is the drunk driver is not proactive. He doesn’t actually do anything. Attempted murder doesn’t punish intent, it punishes action Gomez, I do not get that. The drunk guy is sitting in the seat of his car attempting to drive the car, except he can’t find the keys. His intent is very clear: to drive 100 miles home. If he finds the keys he will do it. One drunk guy finds the keys and drives, another drunk guys does not find them and doesn;t drive. Their intent is the same, the results different. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479/28 "2002-11-20T13:10:59Z")
Except he doesn’t (granted, not by his own choice) do the action that is prohibited by law. It is still against the law to _try_ to kill someone. I see your point though. ---
**Author:** ![Hazen21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Hazen21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazen21)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479/29 "2002-11-20T17:34:02Z")
This can be answered with a nod to “Moral Luck,” recently explained by Thomas Nagel. Two men crash their cars into a tree. Unforunately for the second man, there happened to be a child sitting in front of his tree. If you happen to be a Kantian, both men should be punished equally. If not, then you might say that the second committed murder (or at least manslaughter). Nagel would say that the second should be punished more severely- not because he is a worse individual, but because he happened to have bad moral luck. Another example is a comparison between two men growing up in Germany in the 1930s. One man moves to Argentina and becomes a farmer. The other stays and becomes a guard in a concentration camp, where he reluctantly oversees the killing of thousands. Are we to say that the second is a morally inferior man? How can we know what the Argentinian would have done had he stayed? “Luck” seems to play a large part in evaluations of moral worth. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479/30 "2002-11-20T22:51:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ramanujan \* > people have attempted to address this issue by claiming that the thought and the actions are not equivalent. i agree, but i must add that the _intentions_ and the attempt are also not equivalent. intentions are only thoughts, right? so one may intend to kill someone without actually making an attempt. if that person is prosecuted, hello big brother. > > -d-squared \*\* IANAL but once an intention becomes an action in a chain of actions that will eventually lead to a crime it can be prosecuted as CONSPIRACY to commit whatever. For example, I can think about killing my boss, I can probably even get away with writing up Wile E Coyote style blueprints for how to get him…but if the police pick me up in my car with an anvil, some rope and the blueprints, a case could be made that I am conspiring to commit murder. Attempted murder is roughly equivalent to murder because the only diference is a bit of luck or incompetance. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479/31 "2002-11-21T00:13:57Z")
Well, not exactly. You’re missing one crucial element; conspiracy requires an agreement between two or more people to commit the crime. You’d need to conspire with someone else (or, in some jurisdictions, with an undercover police officer) to kill your boss, plus generally make an overt act like buy an anvil. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479/32 "2002-11-21T00:15:28Z")
Not unless you have a friend with you… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-attempted-murder-a-lesser-crime-than-murder/137479.md?page=1)