# Why is Ayn Rand not taught in schools? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 1, 2014, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078 "2014-07-01T10:30:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/261 "2014-09-27T01:16:06Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > No, they are not, (and they especially were not at Rand’s time) unless it is to be, what was it, interpreted through the filter of what someone else says socialism really means 🙂 Well the British Labour Party, which introduced most features of the still existing and still popular welfare state (including the National Health Service) into Britain, during Rand’s lifetime, and also nationalized several major industries, certainly called itself socialist. Some of its members probably still do. (Certainly many British people fervently wish that some of the industries that were de-nationalized since that time were nationalized again.) I think you will find that the parties most responsible for introducing welfare states in other European countries, including the very successful Scandinavian economies, also called themselves socialists. In short, you are quite wrong. To most people, including most of those who actually call themselves socialists, socialism does not and did not mean what you think it means, either in Rand’s time, or today. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/262 "2014-09-27T01:49:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Really? Let’s just take one of these and run with it. How does one need to change the dictionary definition of “altruism” to make Rand minimally sensible? I’m relying on **bldysabba** , who said that the word is re-defined by Rand. My beef is with what he said, not with you or your dictionary. (By the way, you might have identified what dictionary you were citing.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/263 "2014-09-27T01:51:03Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m relying on **bldysabba** , who said that the word is re-defined by Rand. My beef is with what he said, not with you or your dictionary. > > (By the way, you might have identified what dictionary you were citing.) The word “altruism” in the quote box is a link to the dictionary. Did you prefer to use another definition? If so, let’s see it. **Bibysabba** isn’t saying the words need to be redefined, only that they need to be stripped of their value judgements. Altruism = good isn’t necessary true. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/264 "2014-09-27T02:40:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The word “altruism” in the quote box is a link to the dictionary. > > Did you prefer to use another definition? If so, let’s see it. > > **Bibysabba** isn’t saying the words need to be redefined, only that they need to be stripped of their value judgements. Altruism = good isn’t necessary true. He said that I can’t criticize Rand on the basis of the conventional definitions of words she used, since she used them in new ways. Again, take it up with him, not me. This isn’t something I am particularly interested in, and, frankly, I win either way. If the words have their usual definitions, Rand is cruel and uncaring, and promoted a philosophy that says to hell with the needy. If the words have their own special Rand-only meanings, then she’s a bad writer and shouldn’t be taught in schools. You guys work out which scenario you want to defend, and come back to me when you have made up your minds. ETA: better yet, don’t bother. This conversation has ceased to have any value to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/265 "2014-09-27T04:19:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > He said that I can’t criticize Rand on the basis of the conventional definitions of words she used, since she used them in new ways. > > Again, take it up with him, not me. This isn’t something I am particularly interested in, and, frankly, I win either way. > > If the words have their usual definitions, Rand is cruel and uncaring, and promoted a philosophy that says to hell with the needy. If the words have their own special Rand-only meanings, then she’s a bad writer and shouldn’t be taught in schools. > > You guys work out which scenario you want to defend, and come back to me when you have made up your minds. > > ETA: better yet, don’t bother. This conversation has ceased to have any value to anyone. No need to be so defensive, dude. You posted: > [@](#): > > This thread has shown that, for Rand even to be minimally sensible, her writing has to be re-interpreted and words re-defined. Selfishness, altruism, charity, sacrifice: none of these has the usual dictionary meaning in the Randverse. You have to comprehend what she says through the filter of what someone else says she really meant. Are you now taking that back? Are you saying that if any Rand supporters posted something like that, then they are wrong? Because, that’s not how a normal person would interpret your post. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/266 "2014-09-27T04:42:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No need to be so defensive, dude. I’m a bit defensive for having been called “close to dishonest” a number of times in this thread. And none of this matters. The question has been answered. Rand isn’t taught in schools because she has nothing of value to teach. The fiction is of middlin’ quality, and the philosophy is bankrupt. Slapping me around isn’t going to rehabilitate her. She’s a shitten philosopher, one of those types who is good and original, save that the good parts aren’t original, and the original parts aren’t good. [Here’s a thoughtful analysis](http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/03/where-ayn-rand-went-wrong-opinions-columnists-shikha-dalmia.html), more of the kind I can respect than the other two I alluded to (I linked to one.) (You have to click once to get past some banners.) [Here is another.](http://crosscut.com/2012/08/27/politics-government/110215/ayn-rand-seattle-u-philosophy-professor/) The first notes that humans live in societies, which provide benefits. “No man is an island.” Rand’s selfishness leads her to discount the importance of shared efforts in constructing the kind of society that is necessary for Rand – or John Galt – to exist. The second observes the logical error Rand makes in assuming that, while entrepreneurship is necessary for a strong profit-driven economy, it is also sufficient, which it most certainly is not. Your fight isn’t with me, gentlemen. I’m just an opinionated bloke, with the solid good sense not to be taken in by Rand’s simplistic moralizing on the glories of selfishness. Her efforts to turn that from a “bad” word to a “good” one is, in itself, evidence of her inanity. Piss on me all you want, sirs, but it is Ayn Rand who is in flames. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/267 "2014-09-27T11:03:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I am not sensing much future for this conversation. Yeah, I agree. > [@](#): > > So, you agree with what I said, at the same time you say it borders on the dishonest? I agree that _Rand_ was attempting to change the emotional association of those words. I said your statement borders on the dishonest because you say for her to be sensible she has to be ‘re-interpreted’ based on what someone else tells you ‘she really meant’, when in fact, all I have been doing is pointing out to you that your recollection and understanding is flawed, because you miss things that Rand makes blindingly obvious in her books. Your assertion that Rand doesn’t incorporate the Golden rule, that the welfare system at Twentieth century motors was a normal everyday welfare system that we all come across, that society in the book collapsed because only the top layer vanished, are all directly and explicitly contradicted by the text of the book, not by my arcane attempts at interpretation. You do not recollect/ understand Rand’s arguments, yet your repeated assertions that you do and your repeated willingness to insult something that you (should) have been shown you do not understand is quite unfortunate. > [@](#): > > She’s a bad rhetoritician, because she’s unwilling to enter into a clear and cogent discussion of issues. She would rather engage in manipulation of language than in an honest meeting of minds. On the contrary, she expresses herself with remarkably little obfuscation in her arguments and her dramatic novels. > [@](#): > > I was not happy with the chapter on Ayn Rand in Michael Shermer’s book “Why People Believe Weird Things.” It was too heavily based on Rand’s own personal issues – her paranoia, her cult of dependency, the mindlessness of many of her followers – and not enough on the actual failings of her philosophy. I wish that more exposes of Rand’s ideas were more focused on those ideas. > > In much the same way, I am not happy with this link, entitled [Top 10 Reasons Ayn Rand was Dead Wrong.](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/top-10-reasons-ayn-rand-was-dead-wrong/) Nearly half of the ten reasons are ad hominem arguments of one form or another. > > (The two key reasons in this list are: “Rand’s philosophy is devoid of gratitude” and “Every man does NOT exist for his own sake.” We all owe much to those who have gone before us, who built our society and created the institutions that allow us to succeed. And we all, to some degree, depend on each other. We are a society, not a collection of loners.) I have read few things that are balanced criticism of Rand. Most either focus on bullshit smears about her life(she idolised a serial killer! she accepted welfare!) or betray a misunderstanding of the topic similar to yours. If you’re sincere, Panache’s posts on these boards will give you a very good idea of flaws in her philosophy. The CBS article that you linked actually does hit on two very critical flaws, but they are, predictably, not the ones you think. The gratitude point is technically true, but far from a critical flaw. Her characters help other people(Roark with the sculptor for instance), but reject their gratitude because they helped because it gave pleasure to do so, and thus they regarded gratitude as unnecessary. The second point is just wrong, and a great example of how you constantly misunderstand Rand. One can easily exist for their own happiness, with bonds of family and community feeding into that happiness. Rand’s depiction of Utopia is not of loner hermits. It’s of a community of people who live and do things with and for each other, they just do in what they agree to be a fair exchange. The points that the article does pick up (mostly) correctly are numbers 2 and 7, although they are really mostly one point. > [@njtt](#): > > Well the British Labour Party, which introduced most features of the still existing and still popular welfare state (including the National Health Service) into Britain, during Rand’s lifetime, and also nationalized several major industries, certainly called itself socialist. Some of its members probably still do. (Certainly many British people fervently wish that some of the industries that were de-nationalized since that time were nationalized again.) I think you will find that the parties most responsible for introducing welfare states in other European countries, including the very successful Scandinavian economies, also called themselves socialists. > > In short, you are quite wrong. To most people, including most of those who actually call themselves socialists, socialism does not and did not mean what you think it means, either in Rand’s time, or today. No, I’m not wrong at all. When the British Labour party nationalised industries, it _was_ acting on socialist principles. At present, neither it, nor the UK, nor any major European country is socialist. You make this mistake often, and it is just that, a mistake. Socialism is social control/ownership over the means of production, not government involvement in public goods like sanitation or education, or arguably, healthcare and/or similar safety nets. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/268 "2014-09-27T12:32:38Z")
Eating nutritious food is morally bankrupt whilst swallowing coal makes an individual strong. Becoming a weasel should be the ultimate aim of all free boys and girls. Playing with matches beside an open fuel leakage is perfectly safe and normal. Driving a truck on the highway is the same as flying a bear. Please note I have used my own _definitions_ of common words here. To get these _real_ meanings, you need to join my cult. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/269 "2014-09-27T14:34:50Z")
To be fair (if that still matters), Rand never redefined a word without explaining it in detail. If you’ve read \*The Virtue of Selfishness, \* you can’t blame her if you don’t understand her meaning of “virtue” and “selfishness”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/270 "2014-09-27T14:58:21Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m a bit defensive for having been called “close to dishonest” a number of times in this thread. > > And none of this matters. The question has been answered. Rand isn’t taught in schools because she has nothing of value to teach. The fiction is of middlin’ quality, and the philosophy is bankrupt. > > Slapping me around isn’t going to rehabilitate her. She’s a shitten philosopher, one of those types who is good and original, save that the good parts aren’t original, and the original parts aren’t good. > > [Here’s a thoughtful analysis](http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/03/where-ayn-rand-went-wrong-opinions-columnists-shikha-dalmia.html), more of the kind I can respect than the other two I alluded to (I linked to one.) (You have to click once to get past some banners.) > > [Here is another.](http://crosscut.com/2012/08/27/politics-government/110215/ayn-rand-seattle-u-philosophy-professor/) > > The first notes that humans live in societies, which provide benefits. “No man is an island.” Rand’s selfishness leads her to discount the importance of shared efforts in constructing the kind of society that is necessary for Rand – or John Galt – to exist. > > The second observes the logical error Rand makes in assuming that, while entrepreneurship is necessary for a strong profit-driven economy, it is also sufficient, which it most certainly is not. > > Your fight isn’t with me, gentlemen. I’m just an opinionated bloke, with the solid good sense not to be taken in by Rand’s simplistic moralizing on the glories of selfishness. Her efforts to turn that from a “bad” word to a “good” one is, in itself, evidence of her inanity. > > Piss on me all you want, sirs, but it is Ayn Rand who is in flames. Jesus Fucking Christ, man. I asked a simple question and you go on a tirade that has absolutely nothing to do with me. If anything has become clear is that it’s impossible to have a civil discussion of Ayn Rand on this message board. Why her detractors hate her so intensely is beyond me. There are thousands of “shitty” writers out there, but none draw the ire that Rand does. Makes one wonder how much of that ire is really because of her “shitty” writing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/271 "2014-09-27T17:18:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Jesus Fucking Christ, man. I asked a simple question and you go on a tirade that has absolutely nothing to do with me. > > If anything has become clear is that it’s impossible to have a civil discussion of Ayn Rand on this message board. Why her detractors hate her so intensely is beyond me. There are thousands of “shitty” writers out there, but none draw the ire that Rand does. Makes one wonder how much of that ire is really because of her “shitty” writing. It’s not a mystery. Unlike most shitty writers, Ayn Rand is a shitty writer with a shitty ideology who is held up as an icon by shitty people who are pursuing shitty public policies that would make our society shittier. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/272 "2014-09-27T18:05:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s not a mystery. Unlike most shitty writers, Ayn Rand is a shitty writer with a shitty ideology who is held up as an icon by shitty people who are pursuing shitty public policies that would make our society shittier. No shit! ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/273 "2014-09-27T18:21:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If anything has become clear is that it’s impossible to have a civil discussion of Ayn Rand on this message board. Why her detractors hate her so intensely is beyond me. The need to ridicule and belittle Rand so intensely has always confused me. What I find mildly amusing is that the SDMB has such serious hatred for her but so many of her beliefs are socially liberal and would fit right in with most of the board (atheism, contempt for crony capitalists, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/274 "2014-09-27T19:15:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Jesus Fucking Christ, man. I asked a simple question and you go on a tirade that has absolutely nothing to do with me. . . . Welcome to the club. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/275 "2014-09-28T12:57:13Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > The need to ridicule and belittle Rand so intensely has always confused me. What I find mildly amusing is that the SDMB has such serious hatred for her but so many of her beliefs are socially liberal and would fit right in with most of the board (atheism, contempt for crony capitalists, etc.). She was arrogant and full of herself, and presented a philosophy that was arrogant, full of itself, wrong, and presented in books that were poorly written. You’re surprised that the skeptics on the 'Dope enjoy slamming her? She might as well have written the philosophical version of the Twilight series. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/276 "2014-09-29T16:43:18Z")
I don’t know why Rand isn’t taught in (most) schools but whatever the reason I am glad. Because if she was then we would presumably have more spittle-flecked hysterical shriek-fests like this one clogging up the internet and I have absolutely no reason to believe the world would gain any offsetting benefit. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/277 "2014-09-29T17:27:12Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > The need to ridicule and belittle Rand so intensely has always confused me. Not Rand herself. Her _acolytes_. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/278 "2014-09-29T19:23:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not Rand herself. Her _acolytes_. Not? I’m content to criticize her and her followers. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/279 "2014-09-29T19:25:32Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > . . . spittle-flecked hysterical shriek-fests like this one . . . This thread has actually been relatively mild by SDMB standards. Go and study the thread about .9999 and 1 (not even a Pit thread!) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/280 "2014-09-29T19:30:11Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > Because if she was then we would presumably have more spittle-flecked hysterical shriek-fests like this one… Overreact much? Please point to the post that most represents a “spittle-flecked hysterical shriek-fest” to you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078.md?page=15)