# Why is Ayn Rand not taught in schools? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 1, 2014, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078 "2014-07-01T10:30:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/81 "2014-07-02T06:37:57Z")
Look. It’s because Ayn Rand’s pseudo-philosophy is fucking stupid nonsense. And she was a crap writer. That’s all. [/thread] ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/82 "2014-07-02T10:26:23Z")
Ayn Rand largely appeals to two classes of people: Eighteen-year-olds who think she’s the greatest thing since sliced bread because they don’t yet have the life experience to know she’s full of shit; and people like Paul Ryan, who rely on objectivism to justify their own moral and ethical bankruptcy. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/83 "2014-07-02T11:26:13Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > (snip) … **her philosophy embraced egoism and rejected altruism. She made an entire philosophy that celebrated selfishness.** Her morality was completely bankrupt. John Galt’s motto of extreme individualism and self-interest without loyalty or community is (A) abominable and (B) **hardly even needs to be taught nowadays. If anything, this is a lesson that our generation has learned _too well_, to its cost.** (snip) This is the crux of what I find objectionable (heh heh) about her. I contend that in any society that wants altruism to exist, children have to be taught it. Nobody needs to be taught selfishness - people are selfish by nature. In Rand’s world, there’d be no teachers working for the modest rewards that universal education relegates to teaching. Instead, the top few teachers would get big bucks teaching the Rockefellers’ and Duponts’ kids, while society remained largely illiterate. There’d be no war heroes (who, let’s face it, are working for chump change) - but we’d have plenty of highly paid mercenaries working for the highest bidder. Rand benefitted from people who lived altruistically,\* ignoring the fact that someone taught them to be that way.\* And the uber-teachers and mercenaries I’ve described above are just the “success stories”. What do you think most people raised to embrace the self over others would turn out like? Teaching kids to reject altruism is about as necessary (and does as much good) as telling them to eat their dessert first, while they’re still hungry. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/84 "2014-07-02T11:48:46Z")
**Davidmich** : There are several people here who agree with Rand, at least in some issues if not totally. But it takes a bit of courage to defend her against this kind of lynch mob. There is a lot of validity in her philosophy, even if the totality falls short. I knew Ayn Rand, for about 18 months back in the '60s. She had the most brilliant mind I’ve ever encountered, like a bright beacon in the darkness . . . even when her ideas were obviously wrong. But on some occasions she said things that even a knee-jerk Objectivist would find offensive (like that Native Americans quote). I cannot defend her, mainly because I’m no longer an Objectivist (if anything, I’m a “recovering” Objectivist). But I can correct facts about her when they arise. But not within a lynch mob such as this. My favorite novel is still \*The Fountainhead. \*There is nothing wrong with it, neither in substance nor style. Oh, and don’t judge her by her so-called supporters, especially the likes of people like Paul Ryan. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/85 "2014-07-02T12:02:16Z")
So…be wary of her supporters, and don’t listen to her detractors? And her views are defensible, but not to this lot, who expect you to back up your opinions/just want to pile on? Okay then! ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/86 "2014-07-02T12:46:15Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > In Rand’s world, there’d be no teachers working for the modest rewards that universal education relegates to teaching. Instead, the top few teachers would get big bucks teaching the Rockefellers’ and Duponts’ kids, while society remained largely illiterate. There’d be no war heroes (who, let’s face it, are working for chump change) - but we’d have plenty of highly paid mercenaries working for the highest bidder. Speaking of those whom dear old Ferdinand Lundberg called the super-rich, today’s Guardian details a **[fundraiser](http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/01/-sp-tory-summer-party-drew-super-rich-supporters-with-total-wealth-of-11bn)** to get the Tories re-elected. _The 449 attendees at last year’s Thameside event on 24 June had a combined wealth in excess of £11bn, with elite diners sitting at tables costing up to £12,000 each to rub shoulders with David Cameron, Theresa May, Philip Hammond and Boris Johnson, as well as the secretaries of state for health, transport, culture and justice._ _Six billionaires and 15 people with a personal wealth above £100m were present at the closed event at Old Billingsgate Market, including 73 financiers, 47 retail and property tycoons, 10 in oil, gas and mining and 19 working in public affairs and PR, documents seen by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism and the Guardian reveal._ In a perfect world a sonorous old-fashioned voice-over would intone: _“…And within a year, half of these men were living on the street, scrabbling for pennies in the gutter, destitute but still rejecting soul-destroying charity, relying on the Randian prescriptions to recover their vanished glories…”_ — not, you understand as retributive justice, since that’s morally dodgy and unpleasantly vengeful; but just for fun. But as heroes go, these ginks qualify for the Rand definition. However, Taylor Schilling is very pretty. I regret that disgust would prevent my watching her portrayal of Dagny Whatsherface. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/87 "2014-07-02T12:55:22Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > **Davidmich** : There are several people here who agree with Rand, at least in some issues if not totally. But it takes a bit of courage to defend her against this kind of lynch mob. There is a lot of validity in her philosophy, even if the totality falls short. I’ve never understood the visceral dislike for Ayn Rand’s books that people on this board exhibit. I’ve participated in multiple threads on the topic, and the quality of argument offered up in support of that dislike has been incredibly poor. It consists largely of invective based on a misunderstanding of her books and her message, or is based on her personally. Some people even declare that they haven’t read her books, or need not read her books, but feel they are qualified to pass judgement nonetheless. Here are examples such debates - > **[Did Ayn Rand sincerely believe that Objectivism would be good for mankind?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=696816)** > > I have been mocked for struggling with her books and her philosophy. When I try to discuss it, I’m told her writing is simple and is only interesting to first year college students and blah blah blah. This has made me want to abandon the... > **[Who collects the trash in Galt's Gulch?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=716024)** > > I am sure I am not the first to ask this question, but I am curious as to what is a typical Randian response. Of course it is not just the trash, but all the menial work that allows the so-called producers the luxury and free time to “produce”. IMO, Rand was primarily reacting to/against communism in her writings. She recognised and laid out brilliantly the effects of distorted incentives on society. Atlas Shrugged, published in the 1950’s, is a great description of the dysfunction that is inherent in socialist/communist economies, a fact which would not become empirically established for another 20-30 years. There were significant flaws in her work, like her premise that man is or should be a rational being, but there are very few on this board who understand what they actually are(hint - it’s not that she advocates ‘selfishness’). ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/88 "2014-07-02T14:11:47Z")
I read\* Atlas Shrugged\* & the _Fountainhead_ in high school. The guys in the AV club considered those paperbacks as high in status as their extra-big sliderules. (Yup, I’m old.) Didn’t much care for either. Although the movie of the _Fountainhead_ remains a camp classic! Rand doesn’t write all that well, but I can see offering the books as alternate reading in high school. There’s damn little room on a high school curriculum for philosophy, and her work wouldn’t qualify. Nearly all those guys put away their sliderules… ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/89 "2014-07-02T16:11:32Z")
Let’s say that you want to create a philosophy class for high schoolers. Now, there’s a number of ways to do this. You can take a general approach from Intro Philosophy taught at the college level and try to make it a historical survey course. You can concentrate on the more modern philosophers–say from the Enlightenment on. Hell, you could make it just an overview of philosophers who most influenced the 20th (and 21st) century. So say we’re going with an overview of Western philosophy, starting from the Greeks up until some point today. The best way to do this, of course, is by having the students read the primary texts and discuss the ideas within those texts. This might work at the college level, or as an advanced high school course (I mentioned studying philosophy in high school in a Great Books style format), but it will not work as a general course. So you can do what I was given when I was taught an introduction to philosophy in eighth grade and assign an interpretative text, either as a textbook or as a novel form like _Sophie’s World_. We got _Sophie’s World_. This would have been sometime in 1996-1997, so the novel was still new and only recently translated from the Norwegian. It’s approximately 500 pages long and stops with Sartre and I guarantee it was more engaging than yet another heavy textbook. So maybe Rand fits in somewhere, especially with an emphasis on the 20th century. You almost have to have some knowledge of Rand these days to understand Republican politics. But there’s a lot of other ideas you have to understand to understand today’s politics. Just to understand the Republicans these days I’d put premillenial dispensationalism high on the list, as well as the prosperity gospel, supply-side economics, and, yes, Objectivism. But these are not really intro-level discussions and really, the best you can hope for in high school would be a survey of the history of Western philosophy. With so much to talk about, I really don’t know why Rand should be jammed in there for the reasons mentioned previously in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/90 "2014-07-02T17:16:52Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > njtt. Where does it state that her philosophy was hateful? I have no found > > [Ayn Rand - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand) > > “She supported rational and ethical egoism, and rejected altruism. In politics, she condemned the initiation of force as immoral[3] and opposed collectivism and statism as well as anarchism, instead supporting laissez-faire capitalism, which she defined as the system based on recognizing individual rights.[4] In art, Rand promoted romantic realism. She was sharply critical of most philosophers and philosophical traditions known to her, except for some Aristotelians and classical liberals.[5]” > > “She opposed statism, which she understood to include theocracy, absolute monarchy, Nazism, fascism, communism, democratic socialism, and dictatorship.[1” > > [http://mol.redbarn.org/objectivism/Writing/NathanielBranden/BenefitsAndHazards.html](http://mol.redbarn.org/objectivism/Writing/NathanielBranden/BenefitsAndHazards.html) > > Objectivism teaches: > > 1. That reality is what it is, that things are what they are, independent of anyone’s beliefs, feelings, judgments or opinions – that existence exists, that A is A; There’s also the fact that her supposed principles is a group of statements that are either tautology, unsupported, meaningless, self-contradictory, etcetera. “A is A” for example is a tautology means whatever she wants it to mean. It has no rational application. Her statement about the use of force is hypocritical because the one right she values is property, and the use of force is inherent in the idea of property. Her philosophy overall also amounts to a tautology akin to Christian prosperity theology — people who are financially successful deserve it because they are virtuous; we know they are virtuous because they are successful. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/91 "2014-07-02T17:46:29Z")
Great, now every time I close my eye’s I hear Cartman singing _**Ayn Rand’s a bitch she’s a big fat bitch she’s the biggest bitch in the whole wide world she’s a stupid bitch if there ever was a bitch she’s a bitch to all the boys and girls!**_ ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/92 "2014-07-02T18:53:00Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Ayn Rand largely appeals to two classes of people: Eighteen-year-olds who think she’s the greatest thing since sliced bread because they don’t yet have the life experience to know she’s full of shit; and people like Paul Ryan, who rely on objectivism to justify their own moral and ethical bankruptcy. You left out a word: “… **stupid** eighteen-year-olds…” Rand and her followers/acolytes/believers are at their core everything Rand didn’t believe man should be. They are irrational, ignorant, stupid and arrogant beyond measure, with zero evidence to support such arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/93 "2014-07-02T19:37:19Z")
I kind of suspect that Rand is hated so widely on the Dope for a simple reason. Objectivists debate just as stubbornly as liberals. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![irae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f0a364/32.png) [@irae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irae)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/94 "2014-07-02T19:48:49Z")
And here I was just wondering what a vapid, partisan hack would have to contribute… ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/95 "2014-07-02T20:12:52Z")
Ayn Rand isn’t banned in most schools; I’m pretty sure _The Fountainhead_ was in my HS library. > [@davidmich](#): > > Objectivism teaches: > > 1. That reality is what it is, that things are what they are, independent of anyone’s beliefs, feelings, judgments or opinions – that existence exists, that A is A; > 2.That reason, the faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by the various senses, is fully competent, in principle, to understand the facts of reality; > 3.That any form of irrationalism, supernaturalism, or mysticism, any claim to a nonsensory, nonrational form of knowledge, is to be rejected; > 2. That a rational code of ethics is possible and is derivable from an appropriate assessment of the nature of human beings as well as the nature of reality; > 3. That the standard of the good is not God or the alleged needs of society but rather “Man’s life,” that which is objectively required for man’s or woman’s life, survival, and well-being; > 4. That a human being is an end in him- or herself, that each one of us has the right to exist for our own sake, neither sacrificing others to self nor self to others; > 5. That the principles of justice and respect for individuality autonomy, and personal rights must replace the principle of sacrifice in human relationships; > 6. That no individual – and no group – has the moral right to initiate the use of force against others; > 7. That force is permissible only in retaliation and only against those who have initiated its use; > 8. That the organizing principle of a moral society is respect for individual rights and that the sole appropriate function of government is to act as guardian and protector of individual rights. [… therefore, be a huge asshole to everyone.](http://xkcd.com/1049/) > [@panache45](#): > > Oh, and don’t judge her by her so-called supporters, especially the likes of people like Paul Ryan. I think that the behavior of people who attrbute that behavior to her influence is a more useful way of judging her merit that the ostensible pure unalloyed form of those ideas. If 90 percent of people who read _The Fern And The I-Beam_ take up pimping out schoolchildren shortly thereafter, and say that the book inspired them, the actual contents of the book, while important to the discussion, are of limited relevance. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/96 "2014-07-02T20:38:57Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > FWIW, I learned absolutely nothing about libertarians, libertarianism, libertarian thinkers (including Ayn Rand, but there’s also Rothbard, Bastiat, Mises, etc.) in [del]public[/del] government schools. > > When you think about it, it stands to reason: one principle of libertarianism is the belief that the State should not be involved in education. When the State is educating you, it’s unlikely that they’re going to advance such an idea. As a libertarian you would like the government to indoctrinate the youth of the nation into your belief system? You ought to teach The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists by Robert Tressell. Good as both literature and fiction-as-philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/97 "2014-07-02T20:46:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > . . . “A is A” for example is a tautology means whatever she wants it to mean. It has no rational application. . . . It’s a dead end. Okay, A is A. Now what? It doesn’t address transformations. What about 2 + 2 and 4? Can you use the word “is” here? Rand went on to construct gangling huge oil-derricks of ideas, but they rest on quicksand. She went so far as to conclude that altruism is “anti-life,” but all of the middle steps in this grotesque polysyllogism are based only on her declarations, not on accepted premises or demonstrated conclusions. She has so very much in common with Karl Marx, it’s almost funny. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/98 "2014-07-02T20:48:49Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Oh, and don’t judge her by her so-called supporters, especially the likes of people like Paul Ryan. That’s hilarious because the original Rand herself comes off much worse than Rand Paul, as bad as he might be. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/99 "2014-07-02T21:02:07Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I may be the only one here who actually enjoyed reading Atlas Shrugged…and also have zero respect for the philosophical ideas in it. The book is almost entirely morally bankrupt. I enjoyed it enough to read it twice! (I skipped John Galt’s speech, though) I’ve also read The Fountainhead and Anthem. Her prose is objectionable and her philosophies are worse, but they made for some pretty good stories. > [@bldysabba](#): > > IMO, Rand was primarily reacting to/against communism in her writings. She recognised and laid out brilliantly the effects of distorted incentives on society. Atlas Shrugged, published in the 1950’s, is a great description of the dysfunction that is inherent in socialist/communist economies, a fact which would not become empirically established for another 20-30 years. There were significant flaws in her work, like her premise that man is or should be a rational being, but there are very few on this board who understand what they actually are(hint - it’s not that she advocates ‘selfishness’). You’re correct that she was showing the seemingly inevitable result of communism, but I don’t think she showed anything “brilliantly.” She went so far overboard the whole thing ended up being laughable. I think many people on this board understand what she was saying just fine. She certainly beats you over the head with it enough. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078/100 "2014-07-02T21:30:40Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Why does this not surprise us one bit… Aww, did gym class occupy all your intellectual capacity in high school? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ayn-rand-not-taught-in-schools/692078.md?page=6)