# Why Is Battle Hymn of the Republic So Violent? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 12, 2016, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321 "2016-10-12T10:14:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/1 "2016-10-12T10:14:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord; > He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored; > He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword: > His truth is marching on. > > (Chorus) > Glory, glory, hallelujah! > Glory, glory, hallelujah! > Glory, glory, hallelujah! > His truth is marching on. So goes the opening verses to the _Battle Hymn of the Republic_. It has an interesting story behind it too. The author, Julia Ward Howe, was inspired to write it, after she saw a group of Union soldiers do a touching rendition of _John Brown’s Body_. Anyways, it’s a beautiful song, and I sang it all the time when I was in grade school. And I still sing it from time to time in fact. It is all about overcoming life’s adversities, I know. But one thing that has always made me wonder. Why is it so, well, _brutal?_ When I sang it as a child, I didn’t know much about it. But when I got older, I learned more about its author. Julia Ward Howe (1819 – 1910) was an abolitionist and a reformer, an advocate of women’s suffrage, among other things. I know most social reformer’s today, are usually overflowing with mercy and peace and love. No, not in every case, even now (although I think most liberal ones are). Julia Ward Howe’s song sounds almost like fire and brimstone, in fact. What gives with such a violent song? And was she aware of this fact too, that it could be interpreted this way? :):)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/2 "2016-10-12T10:32:43Z")
Onward, Christian soldiers… Military metaphors were not unknown in the later nineteenth century and not only in the USA, or at other times. When the godly get their dander up at evil, especially when it’s perceived to have started the war in the first place, there are none so determinedly self-righteous. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/3 "2016-10-12T11:52:31Z")
Have you heard _Le_ \*Marseilles \* > [@](#): > > Against us tyranny’s > Bloody banner is raised, (repeat) > Do you hear, in the countryside, > The roar of those ferocious soldiers? > They’re coming right into your arms > To cut the throats of your sons, your women! > > To arms, citizens, > Form your battalions, > Let’s march, let’s march! > Let an impure blood > Soak our fields! ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/4 "2016-10-12T12:53:07Z")
Ms Howe wrote those lyrics after the Civil War had already begun. A “Battle Hymn” is not, by its nature, nonviolent. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/5 "2016-10-12T13:00:35Z")
You were expecting a _battle hymn_ to be about raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/6 "2016-10-12T13:19:08Z")
Yeah, she’s not writing about some metaphorical struggle against the evil within ourselves, or anything like that. She’s writing about real, literal soldiers marching on real, literal battlefields, and shooting real, literal guns at other real, literal soldiers. How could it _not_ be violent? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/7 "2016-10-12T14:03:37Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Ms Howe wrote those lyrics after the Civil War had already begun. > [@Chronos](#): > > She’s writing about real, literal soldiers marching on real, literal battlefields And, being an abolitionist, she appears to see, and approve of, the Civil War as a fight to free the slaves. “As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.” ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/8 "2016-10-12T14:13:58Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > And, being an abolitionist, she appears to see, and approve of, the Civil War as a fight to free the slaves. “As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.” Exactly. She saw it as a just war to liberate the slaves from bondage. Some violence is bound to come of that. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/9 "2016-10-12T15:28:50Z")
What they said. This > [@](#): > > Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord; > He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored; > He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword: > His truth is marching on. clearly translates pretty much word for word as > [@](#): > > God has decreed that slavery is to end now. > The slavers shall receive the Lord’s wrath. > In fact the Lord has already started smiting and the remaining slavers are Doomed. > The (Union) soldiers of God are occupying the slaver lands as we speak. And will continue to spread out until there are no slaver lands. It’s amazing how many people think it’s easy(ier) to win a war if your god(s) are on your side. And how many more believe the mere fact they are fighting is proof they’re doing their god(s)’ work. Not that I quarrel with the Union’s actions here. I quarrel only with the idea that it was the Christians’ God’s idea and action. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/10 "2016-10-12T15:53:53Z")
It was hardly new, of course. The English Civil War was permeated with the idea that victory in battle was a sign of God’s favour, and more importantly, defeat was evidence that further resistance was actively obstructing the will of God - one more reason to dispose of Charles Stuart as the “man of blood”. And of course, Mrs. Ward Howe probably had no idea what warfare, particularly as it was to play out in your Civil War, was actually like, as is often the case with cheerleaders for just vengeance. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/11 "2016-10-12T16:03:19Z")
Chickenhawks (as we call them today) are by far the worst kind. As you say. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/12 "2016-10-12T16:12:11Z")
To be fair, the original song “John Brown’s Body” was a bit more crude in calling on divine violence on the side of the Union and was created by the soldiers themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/13 "2016-10-12T16:25:26Z")
Winston Churchill, whose mother was American, loved the song and asked that it be performed at his funeral. See 2:57 here: [- YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peswIugboyM) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/14 "2016-10-12T16:42:02Z")
Even this atheist agrees it’s a stirring tune and deeply moving words. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/15 "2016-10-12T16:49:06Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Chickenhawks (as we call them today) are by far the worst kind. As you say. As a 41-year old woman, Howe didn’t exactly have the option to enlist. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/16 "2016-10-12T17:12:24Z")
You think _that’s_ brutal (late '60s Catholic school): Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school We have tortured all the teachers, we have broken all the rules And we plan to hang the principal tomorrow after school While school is burning down Glory, glory, hallelujah! Teacher hit me with a ruler Shot her out the door With my Magnum .44 And she don’t teach no more. (Then, in my head, it segues into the Hogan’s Heroes theme.) It isn’t Alice Cooper’s “School’s Out,” but _C’est la guerre_. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/17 "2016-10-12T17:26:29Z")
> [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > You think _that’s_ brutal (late '60s Catholic school): > > Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school > We have tortured all the teachers, we have broken all the rules > And we plan to hang the principal tomorrow after school > While school is burning down > > Glory, glory, hallelujah! > Teacher hit me with a ruler > Shot her out the door > With my Magnum .44 > And she don’t teach no more. > > (Then, in my head, it segues into the Hogan’s Heroes theme.) > > It isn’t Alice Cooper’s “School’s Out,” but _C’est la guerre_. I like that. But to the OP, civilization has been founded partially by conquest. War is a continuous part of human existence. Songs used to stir the emotions are part of the environment. Plus with a name like “Battle Hymn” what were you expecting? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/18 "2016-10-12T18:09:58Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > To be fair, the original song “John Brown’s Body” was a bit more crude in calling on divine violence on the side of the Union and was created by the soldiers themselves. They sang of hangin’ Ol’ Jeff Davis from a sour apple tree as they marched along. Ms Howe was inspired to use more elevated language. Many years ago our music teacher added a special song to the 6th Grade Nativity Play. (Back then, all the kids in school were Christians. Now that they aren’t, do the various churches let their kids perform? Some do, but others prefer slicker entertainment. Too bad–it was fun.) Our Recessional was the last verse of the Battle Hymn: > [@](#): > > In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea, > With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me. > As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free\*,[14] > While God is marching on. But we substituted “live” for the last “die”–as many do nowadays. This was intended as a salute to the civil rights movement–very much in the news. In a semi-rural Texas school–in a district that was not segregated because no blacks were allowed to live in the city limits. (We lived outside the city limits.) I don’t know that everyone in the audience knew the reason for that verse. Some probably thought it Too Yankee… ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/19 "2016-10-12T19:00:52Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > It was hardly new, of course. The English Civil War was permeated with the idea that victory in battle was a sign of God’s favour, and more importantly, defeat was evidence that further resistance was actively obstructing the will of God - one more reason to dispose of Charles Stuart as the “man of blood”. . . . And the English Civil War had lots and lots of inspiring battle songs (and drinking songs too!) There’s a recording of “[A Tapestry of Music for Oliver Cromwell & his Roundheads](https://www.discogs.com/St-Georges-Canzona-A-Tapestry-of-Music-for-Oliver-Cromwell-his-Roundheads/release/8727499)” and a companion collection of songs for King Charles. Lots of really good inspirational music in the militaria style. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321/20 "2016-10-12T19:30:13Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > It was hardly new, of course. The English Civil War was permeated with the idea that victory in battle was a sign of God’s favour, and more importantly, defeat was evidence that further resistance was actively obstructing the will of God - one more reason to dispose of Charles Stuart as the “man of blood”. > > And of course, Mrs. Ward Howe probably had no idea what warfare, particularly as it was to play out in your Civil War, was actually like, as is often the case with cheerleaders for just vengeance. Reading about her on wiki, it notes after the war she worked for pacifism and women’s suffrages causes. The song was written in 1862. Keep in mind the first real major battle interms of heavy bloodshed was Shiloh in April of that year. It produced more casualties that the American Revolution, War of 1812 and Mexican war combined. It convinced people such as U S Grant that the war was going to be a lot bloodier than he, and many others, imagined. But, yeah, wars tend to go a lot different than predicted. James McPherson notes at the outside an English newspaper predicted the South would win because we couldn’t win there twice in trying. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-battle-hymn-of-the-republic-so-violent/768321.md?page=2)