# Why is Beethoven considered a genius? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 19, 2009, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938 "2009-05-19T07:01:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/61 "2009-05-21T20:15:41Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Beethoven’s Opus numbers refer to works that were published in his lifetime. He had over 200 works that were not published, generally referred to as the WoO (Werke ohne Opuszahl). That puts his output at roughly half Mozart’s. Still considerably less, yes, but not by nearly as large a margin. But most of those are fairly small things, like the bagatelles. I’m not sure I’d want to count them in the denominator. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/62 "2009-05-21T20:31:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But most of those are fairly small things, like the bagatelles. I’m not sure I’d want to count them in the denominator. And many of them aren’t. Given that one of those bagatelles is _Für Elise_, I wouldn’t dismiss them out of hand. (My favorite WoO, incidentally, is #204 “Joke in D major”, subtitled “Holz geigt die Quartette so, als ob sie Kraut eintreten” (Holz, holz, you play the quartets as if you were chopping cabbage).) ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/63 "2009-05-21T20:47:28Z")
An aside from Pterry that I think is perfectly applicable to Beethoven (and presumably was inspired by him): “Being deaf doesn’t prevent composers from hearing the music. It prevents them from hearing the distractions.” ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/64 "2009-05-21T21:11:04Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Beethoven’s Opus numbers refer to works that were published in his lifetime. He had over 200 works that were not published, generally referred to as the WoO (Werke ohne Opuszahl). That puts his output at roughly half Mozart’s. Still considerably less, yes, but not by nearly as large a margin. Quantity of works isn’t necessarily a meaningful measure of the quantity of the output, anyway. Look at Wagner, for instance. (I recall a claim I heard, I can’t remember where, that measured on a bars-per-day basis Britten ranked up near Mozart for productivity. I don’t find that hard to believe, either.) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/65 "2009-05-22T16:32:14Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > The Sonic Death Cannon he built into his harpsichord might have something to do with it. This was the well known _Vergeltungsklavier-A4_, and he kept it oriented on a transalpine trajectory to maintain the musical balance of power vis-a-vis the Italians. ---
**Author:** ![MarsellusWallace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@MarsellusWallace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarsellusWallace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/66 "2012-11-20T04:45:02Z")
For me it is very simple to express why Beethoven was a genius. The answer is emotion. While I took some music appreciation classes in college, I can’t compete with the depth of musical knowledge that some of the posters in this thread have shown. What I can say, from a personal point of view, is that Beethoven’s music affects me like no other composer’s. The power of his music gets me every time. The joy, sadness, hope and despair conveyed in his music have no parallel in anything else I’ve heard. His 9th Symphony in particular is capable of reducing me to tears every time I listen to it. That emotional connection is what conveys his genius to me. But it is a personal thing. And some may find that connection with another composer. My suggestion to anybody who wants to try and understand his genius, is to go and see a live performance of the 9th Symphony and see if you find yourself moved by his music. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/67 "2012-11-20T04:46:42Z")
Moved to Cafe Society. Please note that this thread was started in 2009. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/68 "2012-11-20T04:54:03Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Moved to Cafe Society. > > Please note that this thread was started in 2009. Ah, yes, when Cafe Society was only a mod’s dream. Personally, I think Beethoven is overrated, and not part of my recorded music collection. But then, my music collection has more P.D.Q. than C.P.E. or J.S. ---
**Author:** ![JCorre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3da27b/32.png) [@JCorre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JCorre)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/69 "2012-11-20T06:23:34Z")
I can’t add anything from personal authority. However I have seen a documentary of Beethoven that was very good. From this treatment it seems Beethoven broke through some barriers of his time. If the experts in the film are to be believed, the previous masters valued symmetry over all. Beethoven was one of the first to value emotion first and just make the expressing of the sentiment top priority. [http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/In\_Search\_of\_Beethoven/70124218?trkid=496624](http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/In_Search_of_Beethoven/70124218?trkid=496624) For what its worth. ---
**Author:** ![JCorre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3da27b/32.png) [@JCorre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JCorre)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/70 "2012-11-20T06:29:43Z")
On a personal note I don’t think Mozart had a choice. He dictated straight from inspiration. Had he been born after Beethoven who knows what he would have written. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/71 "2012-11-20T21:13:52Z")
> [@JCorre](#): > > From this treatment it seems Beethoven broke through some barriers of his time. If the experts in the film are to be believed, the previous masters valued symmetry over all. Beethoven was one of the first to value emotion first and just make the expressing of the sentiment top priority. That’s why Beethoven is considered as starting the Romantic period in music: He broke away from the symmetrical and ordered form that music had in the Classical period, which was first noted in his 2d symphony (not so much his first). ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/72 "2012-11-20T22:19:34Z")
He used freaken’ cannons mate. What else do you need to know? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/73 "2012-11-20T22:49:10Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > He used freaken’ cannons mate. What else do you need to know? :smack: Cannons? Only classical piece I can think of (admittedly, I don’t know much about this category of music) that uses them is “1812 Overture”, which was Tchaikovsky (had to look up the spelling). Side note for Beethoven experts: I recently re-watched “Psycho”, in HD, and noticed that at one point Norman has “Eroica” on his record player (not currently playing). Is there any sort of meaning to that, or was it just what the prop guy grabbed? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/74 "2012-11-20T22:51:54Z")
In the book [Music, the Brain and Ecstasy](http://www.amazon.com/Music-Brain-Ecstasy-Captures-Imagination/dp/038078209X) (amazon link), the author, IIRC, mentions Beethoven as the guy who develops the deepest, most complex harmonic structures in his music. It was a fascinating book. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/75 "2012-11-20T23:14:47Z")
Yes the 1812 is the one that most people think of but [http://youtu.be/PkfUgfT8JjQ](http://youtu.be/PkfUgfT8JjQ) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/76 "2012-11-21T00:35:02Z")
> [@633squadron](#): > > Give us a citation that makes you think he was the “best of the best”. > > Beethoven was a very capable composer, and deserves a great reputation. He is not in the same category as Mozart. > > I once had this conversation with a professor of organ performance at Stanford. She pointed out that, at best, Beethoven was a transition between the “Classical” and “Romantic” styles of Western European music. In comparison, Mozart was both a prodigy and a genius. > > Mozart started out as a child prodigy. Had he died at age 16, he’d still be remembered for all his accomplishments as a child. From all accounts, he was as good a musician and composer at age 11 as any adult professional. > > Mozart went on to set a standard of classical music, with a remarkably adroit mixture of lyrical melody and sophisticated harmony that even Shostakovich admired and copied. He was equally adept at writing concertos (for piano, oboe, and clarinet, among others), symphonies, operas, and other works. For **each** of these, he contributed enduring classics. I can’t think of any other Western European composer that can claim the same. > > In comparison, Beethoven **eventually** became a symphonic master. He was very good as a young man, but no prodigy. His early symphonies are nice but hardly memorable, fashioned in a clearly classical style. I would say that the 5th, 7th, and 9th are his best, by far. He also contributed great piano works, but in defense of Mozart, the piano was a brand-new instrument during most of Mozart’s life. Beethoven’s operas are only so-so, though because of his reputation, they get played often. > > Beethoven stands out because his symphonies have powerful melodies and structure, and show an intensity that Mozart lacked. Most of Mozart is light, airy, and a bit blithe. Only the Requiem shows maturity. In comparison, Beethoven’s 9th is awe-inspiring. Without the 9th, no Romantic movement. > > Also, Beethoven’s music has entered the popular musical vocabulary, in a way that Mozart has not. > > Finally, Beethoven broke the unfortunate mold that musicians, composers, and artists of all types had been forced into. He was among the first, and by far the most famous, composers who made a living composing and performing music on their own, instead of getting patronage. Bach made his living as a Kappelmeister. Mozart either struggled creatively under the idiot Emperor of Austria, or struggled monetarily on his own. Beethoven managed to survive in a middle/upper-class milieu. As a result, his death provoked a massive public mourning, and people lined the streets to watch his funeral procession. > > And Mozart got buried in a potter’s graveyard. When some oaf like me says that the 9th Symphony is the best piece of music ever composed, there is really no counter-example you can come up with that would make a good argument. And you don’t have to ask whose 9th Symphony you are referring to. Yes, that is painting with a broad brush. But it is the 9th. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/77 "2012-11-21T02:14:50Z")
Listen to the music of Haendel, Bach, Vivaldi, Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven, in that order, to trace the development of Western music. Then listen to the works of Beethoven from the beginning of his career to the Ninth Symphony to trace his development as a composer. The difference is like night and day. Beethoven was the great watershed; Western music can be divided into two periods, pre- and post-Beethoven. His later works gave the musicians who performed them fits; they had never seen anything like them. It’s no wonder many people considered him mad. He really was composing for future generations. ---
**Author:** ![rivulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938/78 "2012-11-21T03:22:36Z")
So… I have a Ph.D. in musicology (with a lovely dissertation gathering dust on a shelf) and I could give a technical answer. But my most honest answer would be that the genius of composers like Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, etc. lies in how they created music with such richness and intelligence that you can return to it time and time again, over a whole lifetime, and always discover something new, or deeper, or more wondrous. I experience the same thing with Shakespeare. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-beethoven-considered-a-genius/496938.md?page=3)